Any Idea's , what went wrong with this one ???????

[Bosleeu]

Commiserations! Just one of those things. They probably just couldn't get to the food.

 

[itma]

...
Even though , directly on the top bars , there is a bag of fondant with 1/3 of the underside of the bag cut away....

Regarding that cutaway. To my mind what matters is not so much the size of the opening, but what really matters to me is whether or not the opening crosses all the frame/frame 'seams', so that, whichever slot the bees might be in, there is accessible food above them.
Otherwise, the situation could be being made even worse than putting fondant above a coverboard hole. The bees can 'find' it more easily if the access is just plain up than off to the side somewhere (which is precisely the case with classic 'isolation').
The cutaway needs to cross all the 'seams'.

 

[Tremyfro]

When we put fondant on our bees...we used plastic takeaway containers. I left a bee space inside them and we placed them directly over the bee seams. We used very shallow ekes to accommodate the containers. We could see through the clear cover boards when the containers needed to be replaced. I did think about rolling out the fondant into a big flat piece but it was too difficult to transport to the hives as it was floppy. The containers worked really well and we were able to make sure they were placed over the bees as they moved the cluster.

 

[Pete D]

I assume it was a wooden eke on top of a poly nuc?

All you need is one ill fitting joint to hive or joint to roof...and in cold weather that could tip the balance..

I find small nucs struggle here unless very well insulated and lots of stores..

its a paynes poly nuc with a paynes poly eke, fits well, fondant on frame tops, insulation around and over fondant filling the void up to the poly roof.

 

[Jed D]

Morning everyone , Just up after a nightshift and wow loads of idea's / Questions etc..

As Pete D has stated Poly Nuc , Poly eke , bag of fondant on the top of frames ( with a 1 inch cut across the bag ( corner to corner ) inside the eke.
On top and surrounding the fondant is a pillow case filled with , wait for it...
( Bean Bag stuffing ) i.e. small round poly beads..
I used these because they mould themselves round the fondant and make a nice seal.....
On top of this is, the roof with a brick on and around the complete nuc a strap , holding it on the stand....

This is the first time I've put fondant straight on the frames.. Last year it was on top of the crown boards .
I used a hole saw and cut round holes in all my poly nuc crown boards , this way I could fit rapid feeders and place fondant on top for winter...


The reason I mentioned the Mustard flow in Oct is,,,
I had already fed them for winter and I was concerned, both at the amount of Bees in a small box and where they were putting all the food !!!
Reading my notes , last checked on 23rd Sept, brood on 4 frames. food everywhere , stop feeding...

I also mentioned pollen, Yes, they need food for winter ' but they also need pollen for spring brood.

The other bit I spotted in your answers was , blowning a gale under their butts..

I wondered if I should be concerned about this.
The nucs are on stands ,12 inches of the ground. I put inspection boards on the stands at Api Bio time and haven't removed them , thinking this would provide them with a bit more protection from the cold !!!

But have I created a wind tunnel , vortex type thing ????? Sucking all their warm air out and replacing it with cold !!!!

We all try to do our best by our Bees and this is the first year I've lost any ! So I'm a touch Cheesed off !!!!!!
But being a practical fella , my concern turns to the over 5 Nucs on the same site.

On reflextion they do seem to have simply starved themselves !! If they had of moved one frame over or 2 inches up , they would of had 3/4 lbs of stores to go at...

So as the sun is High in the sky and the wind is low. I'm off to put a pollen patty in the top of the others and block their possible wind tunnel...

P.S. Brother pete , How many lbs of frozen bees do you want to check ???

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

On reflextion they do seem to have simply starved themselves !! If they had of moved one frame over or 2 inches up , they would of had 3/4 lbs of stores to go at...

seen bees with their heads in cells woth stores in the comb only an inch or two away!

 

[Jed D]

Just back from blocking the possible wind tunnels.
The other bees all seemed fine, bringing home pollen

These nucs are on a new site, which i only took one last August.
As I stood there today, there is a steady breeze blowing straight at the entrances of the nucs.

With this in mind , I've come to the conclusion that if my feelings of panic don't subside within the next 24 hours. I'm going to bring them all home and nurture them in our back garden.

Of course on a warm day , we won't be able to get to the washing line' but there's always the tumble dryer....

 

[REDWOOD]

Just back from blocking the possible wind tunnels.
The other bees all seemed fine, bringing home pollen

These nucs are on a new site, which i only took one last August.
As I stood there today, there is a steady breeze blowing straight at the entrances of the nucs.

With this in mind , I've come to the conclusion that if my feelings of panic don't subside within the next 24 hours. I'm going to bring them all home and nurture them in our back garden.

Of course on a warm day , we won't be able to get to the washing line' but there's always the tumble dryer....

Easy solution, turn the hives so the entrances our not facing the prevailing winds

 

[itma]

Easy solution, turn the hives so the entrances our not facing the prevailing winds

Gently! Little by little!

A 180º turn, all in one go, is going to leave LOTS of bees hunting for an entrance.
Now, that ain't a good thing in coldish conditions. A lot of foragers (and I'd expect principally water foragers) will not have enough heat reserve to hunt out where you have hidden their entrance!

A little bit of a wind break could be implemented more quickly.

 

[itma]

... bag of fondant on the top of frames ( with a 1 inch cut across the bag ( corner to corner ) inside the eke. ...

Still sounds to me as though you are un-necessarily restricting access to the fondant.

One common method seems to be to slice packs in half, and then put the cut faces downwards on the frames. Quick, simple, keeps the fondant mostly wrapped while exposing lots of surface area for the bees' access.


The other aspect is water.
To use fondant (or stored honey actually) the bees need to dilute it with water.
If there isn't any around, or the weather is so bad they can't get any, then the fondant isn't much use. Hence, a bit of condensation on the inside walls of the hive (but not on the coverboard!) is actually rather useful.
Which has led me to contemplate putting a couple of small stainless bolts through the side wall of the hive - to make cold spots and promote condensation in specific places, and thereby give the bees their own "well". Yes, it would drain some heat out of the hive, but it would add a safe water source.

 

[thenovice]

Still sounds to me as though you are un-necessarily restricting access to the fondant.

One common method seems to be to slice packs in half, and then put the cut faces downwards on the frames. Quick, simple, keeps the fondant mostly wrapped while exposing lots of surface area for the bees' access.


The other aspect is water.
To use fondant (or stored honey actually) the bees need to dilute it with water.
If there isn't any around, or the weather is so bad they can't get any, then the fondant isn't much use. Hence, a bit of condensation on the inside walls of the hive (but not on the coverboard!) is actually rather useful.
Which has led me to contemplate putting a couple of small stainless bolts through the side wall of the hive - to make cold spots and promote condensation in specific places, and thereby give the bees their own "well". Yes, it would drain some heat out of the hive, but it would add a safe water source.

Hi Itma,

you seem to have looked into the water requirements of bees a lot...
My hunch was in cold weather there would be more than enough water produced by the bees when they burn sugar. Is starvation by drought a big issue then in winter? The only information I can find in the literature is indirect eg... H2O produced not the water needed by the colony... It seems from what I read that water is more of an issue when brood rearing starts again.

any pointers to literature about the subject?

 

[itma]

See Winston for the 50% solution being what the bees metabolise (and thus need water to dilute even stored honey).

When the bees do metabolise the sugars in nectar/honey, it does indeed produce "water" - H2O as well as CO2. However that "water" is largely lost from the bees as water vapour (again I'm pretty sure Winston covers that).
Now, what the bees need to dilute their stores (and dissolve fondant) is liquid water - not vapour.
However, some vapour will condense to liquid, in the presence of an adequately cold surface.
With an OMF (and especially with a non-rotting poly hive), condensation within the hive can (in the right place) be a win-win situation. By knocking down some vapour to usable liquid, humidity (vapour in the air) is reduced, thereby reducing the risk from moulds - as well as providing 'drinking water'.
The wrong place for condensation is on the coverboard - as it can drip onto the bees, potentially fatally chilling them. It is very worthwhile ensuring that the coverboard is warmer than the walls, to avoid condensation above the bees. This is the reason for the forum popularity of closing any coverboard holes and providing insulation above it.


50 years ago, in the era of solid wooden floors, condensation was regarded as something that needed to be avoided at all costs - and the recipe for that was not to insulate, but to increase the rate of air-change -- ventilation! (Which is the origin of the much derided, on this forum anyway, nostrum of raising the crownboard on matchsticks to let as much warm moist air out of the hive as possible.)

 

[drstitson]

"they also need pollen for spring brood"

which they get from early spring blooms - an indication to them that conditions are right for brooding!!!!!

 

[Jed D]

Well , I've bought them home for nurturing , warm sheltered spot..

http://i1306.photobucket.com/albums/s565/Jed-D/new ones 001_zpstrhlntr2.jpg

And of course ,there's no way I can cut the hedge this side of May....