Another witch burning

[Erichalfbee]

Stop it you lot.
And
@Boston Bees @Beesnaturally Good grief how old are you ?

 

[user 20297]

I found the original cartoon that spawned the verb ( Sealioning - Wikipedia )

View attachment 30810

That's brilliant and weird; I didn't know there was a term for it. A bit of a slur on sealions though...they're smarter than that.

 

[user 20297]

I will however review my policy of buying shiny boxes, and thing about ordering some local sawn cedar (ish) boards. My thinking is if they were all on sawn board my comparisons would be a lot easier, and I'd have healthier bees to boot.

(With apologies for editing down to such a large degree.)

That's the aspect this that I'm not sure about. Is it true that bees are more likely to propolise rough internal surfaces in bee-boxes and trees, and are less likely to propolise smooth surfaces, such as the interiors of polyhives? If so, why would we artificially provide a facing which offers bugs and pathogens a greater area of crevices in which to lurk? Maybe the bees are prompted to propolise such surfaces primarily in order to smooth them out and to provide an air and watertight barrier. The "antiskeptik" effect could then be seen as an incidental benefit.

With an artificially, ultra-smooth, internal wall, a polyhive may be an intrinsically more hygienic home for our bees and require much less propolis even when housing propolis inclined bee stocks.

 

[Beesnaturally]

(With apologies for editing down to such a large degree.)

That's the aspect thfis that I'm not sure about. Is it true that bees are more likely to propolise rough internal surfaces in bee-boxes and trees, and are less likely to propolise smooth surfaces, such as the interiors of polyhives? If so, why would we artificially provide a facing which offers bugs and pathogens a greater area of crevices in which to lurk? Maybe the bees are prompted to propolise such surfaces primarily in order to smooth them out and to provide an air and watertight barrier. The "antiskeptik" effect could then be seen as an incidental benefit.

With an artificially, ultra-smooth, internal wall, a polyhive may be an intrinsically more hygienic home for our bees and require much less propolis even when housing propolis inclined bee stocks.

I can only speak for myself. I use both smooth and sawn cedar, and can only watch over over the years to see what sorts of things happen. My apiaries being completely untreated or mollycoddled, whatever works for bees under natural conditions will show up - if anything. If I find myself marking hives for mothers that are persistently sticky or vice-versa that will be interesting, but that's about it I think.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Stop it you lot.
And
@Boston Bees @Beesnaturally Good grief how old are you ?

He started it...

 

[Skinfaxi]

I dont know much but in horticulture agriculture you get land race plants and animals and you get cultivated plants and animals.either for mass industial farming or open pollinated types. The production breeds have the qualities a producer needs to bring a product to market that the fussy consumers want. If you are a farmer, you need even consistant productive produce to make a living. And yes also healthy. If you are a hobby enviromentalist then you do not care about the above. If farmers got a decent price then maybe they wont need to tire out the land or animals to produce cheap throw away food for the mindless masses. So imagine you have 100s or 1000s of colonies will glued up frames. How is that extra time to unglue the frames going to help an already difficult situation. Please do remember if you want to make a change then it needs to be practical. Are you beesnaturaly saying that bee keepers need to stop keeping bees and only have wild colonies about. I support organic production and have sold my produce to markets. If your answers are not practical, then no one will support you. Go look how Nicole Masters a regenerative agri consultant brings actual practical solution that peaple in the industry can do with in reason.
Agriculture is not for dreamers or the fient hearted. Any succesfull producer nowadays should be awarded medals for the rubbish they have to put up with. Farming is very difficult compared to other forms of work.

 

[Murox]

oops

 

[Beesnaturally]

I dont know much but in horticulture agriculture you get land race plants and animals and you get cultivated plants and animals.either for mass industial farming or open pollinated types. The production breeds have the qualities a producer needs to bring a product to market that the fussy consumers want. If you are a farmer, you need even consistant productive produce to make a living. And yes also healthy. If you are a hobby enviromentalist then you do not care about the above. If farmers got a decent price then maybe they wont need to tire out the land or animals to produce cheap throw away food for the mindless masses. So imagine you have 100s or 1000s of colonies will glued up frames. How is that extra time to unglue the frames going to help an already difficult situation. Please do remember if you want to make a change then it needs to be practical. Are you beesnaturaly saying that bee keepers need to stop keeping bees and only have wild colonies about. I support organic production and have sold my produce to markets. If your answers are not practical, then no one will support you. Go look how Nicole Masters a regenerative agri consultant brings actual practical solution that peaple in the industry can do with in reason.
Agriculture is not for dreamers or the fient hearted. Any succesfull producer nowadays should be awarded medals for the rubbish they have to put up with. Farming is very difficult compared to other forms of work.

No one is suggesting maximising propolising behaviours Skinfaxi. So you have a bit of a straw man thing going there.

I earn a living from my bees. You don't have to lecture me about competition.

I do it without causing damage to wild bees. It's my belief that a good understanding of the mechanics of genetic husbandry allows beekeepers to maximise their income while not harming their environment.

But you need that understanding.

 

[Skinfaxi]

Yes sounds like you have it all sorted.

 

[JamezF]

In case it's of interest:

https://mdpi-res.com/d_attachment/insects/insects-11-00453/article_deploy/insects-11-00453.pdf

James

 

[Wilco]

Interesting that one of their references, explicitly acknowledged in the text, found that increasing propolis did not affect varroa levels although there was a reduction in DWV.

 

[JamezF]

Interesting that one of their references, explicitly acknowledged in the text, found that increasing propolis did not affect varroa levels although there was a reduction in DWV.

It might be interesting to compare that with the paper I linked to earlier in the thread. I've not got very far into this one yet though; very busy weekend followed by a hard hour in the swimming pool and I'm not feeling too sharp this evening.

James

 

[Wilco]

It might be interesting to compare that with the paper I linked to earlier in the thread. I've not got very far into this one yet though; very busy weekend followed by a hard hour in the swimming pool and I'm not feeling too sharp this evening.

James

IIRC, and massively oversimplified, the one earlier in the thread used a synthetic comb for in vitro tests whereas in the reference/citation in this one, the testing was closer to being in vivo by adding or removing propolis from hives. Obviously both methods have their flaws if analysed or if trying to extrapolate findings.

 

[JamezF]

IIRC, and massively oversimplified, the one earlier in the thread used a synthetic comb for in vitro tests whereas in the reference/citation in this one, the testing was closer to being in vivo by adding or removing propolis from hives. Obviously both methods have their flaws if analysed or if trying to extrapolate findings.

Thanks for the summary. I shall have a read myself when I'm not quite so tired.

James

 

[Sayle]

But do you have evidence that top ventilation is a bad thing?

Why must you hurt me?

 

[Beesnaturally]

Why must you hurt me?

It runs against my experience. I've seen bees living multi-year in a wide open tree cavity. I've read from a commercial author that matchsticking discourages mould. I've tried it for several years on multiple hives (I'm trying insulated cover boards now). In my experience nothing makes much difference. But to my way of thinking challenging bees, rather than mollycoddling them makes for a stronger strain.
So, I ask if there is any actual evidence it might be harmful. I'm sorry if that hurts

 

[Antipodes]

It runs against my experience. I've seen bees living multi-year in a wide open tree cavity. I've read from a commercial author that matchsticking discourages mould. I've tried it for several years on multiple hives (I'm trying insulated cover boards now). In my experience nothing makes much difference. But to my way of thinking challenging bees, rather than mollycoddling them makes for a stronger strain.
So, I ask if there is any actual evidence it might be harmful. I'm sorry if that hurts

I was reading this from a bee magazine recently, and I'll quote it.

"....Years ago everyone recommended upward ventilation; it was all the go from Langstroth down. Mr Langstroth relates an instance in his book of a friend wintering seventeen stocks on their summer stands, only one having upward ventilation. The mercury went fourteen clapboards below zero and the bees all died, save the one that was all ventilation. During the past two winters I have given my winter repository both upward and lower ventilation: have ventilated some hives, others have none, but it makes no difference......"
James Heddon
American Bee Journal,
January 1876, volume 1.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

challenging bees, rather than mollycoddling them makes for a stronger strain.

Not that abso;ute balderdash being rattled off again

So, I ask if there is any actual evidence it might be harmful. I'm sorry if that hurts

is there any evidence that it is actually beneficial (In our climate not the sub zero almost arctic conditions experienced in the Northern Americas?)

 

[Beesnaturally]

Not that abso;ute balderdash being rattled off again

is there any evidence that it is actually beneficial (In our climate not the sub zero almost arctic conditions experienced in the Northern Americas?)

Sigh. Its straightforward Darwinism.

To some people (not you clearly) the ability to thrive unaided in a native wild species is extraordinarily important.

In an open mating animal every time you 'help' an individual (a colony) you downgrade the local population, in a manner commensurate with the help need met.

Evidence is not what you need, its knowledge of the mechanism that rules nature, and which breeders routinely imitate. 'Put best to best' is the underlying idea, which is as old as agriculture itself. Finding the male with the gammy leg, and mating him to the female who walks in circles is not, the best strategy.

If you have to call out the vet: fatten it to market. You don't want to be breeding from an individual that need health help.

If that seems like nonsense to you, I doubt I will want to help you further. Until you can understand basic Darwinism, and apply it to honey bees, you won't understand.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

As I said, the usual pseudo scientific balderdash and just a shout of 'Darwinism' to cover everything whenever challenged
I don't think it's me that's beyond help.

But I may just have found the missing link

Between what and who is yet to be established.
But I think it's time to stop feeding.