Another Post Mortem Request

[BugsInABox]

These guys not flying when the other had started so had a look inside. I'd been nervous about them all winter, I know they were alive at new year. Suspect I took too much off them and they also didnt take much syrup down - I put it on too late probably. They had an OA vape again in late (October) and I left them with OA strips (as Randy Oliver). There was a container of fondant one comb away - which they had taken some (though barely) from.
I'm assuming starvation +/- varroa virus weakness? But does the preserved cluster structure perhaps imply they froze? Interested to here others thoughts though. I havent 'tasted' the crumbing in a couple of cells - will if pushed.
What should I do about cleaning up - do the moulds forming on the corpses on a couple of frames mean I should destry rather than re-using?
Regards
Neil
BIAB

 

[Nige.Coll]

Been dead for a while, gone mouldy.
Queenless bees don't take syrup down.
Some varroa on the corpses.
Doesn't look like there was much of a colony left.

 

[The Poot]

Well, I think you’ve answered your own questions, if I’m reading your post right.
You took too much off them and didn’t successfully feed, causing them to starve.
You mention “a vape” in October -if that was a single vape, it wouldn’t be enough, causing a high varroa load into the Winter.
Dwindling numbers would cause them to fail through the cold.

The bees we keep artificially in our wooden boxes are at our mercy and we should ensure we don’t do any of the above, but you know that.
You need to make their care a higher priority than what you take from them.
As far as the comb is concerned, I would think it could be reused, but any that look “iffy” don’t take a chance on and reclaim the wax.
I’ve not used a tbh, so others can answer this re specifics to them.

Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh.

 

[user 819]

Lots of varroa poop visible.

 

[Boston Bees]

What Poot said.

Visibly major varroa problem due to ineffective treatment (I am guessing that vaping in a TBH might be hard to do effectively, but I don't know).

Not enough honey left for the bees. Not enough care over checking that syrup feeding had delivered the required results.

Not enough care to ensure that the fondant was right over the cluster (though fondant couldn't have saved this hive really, given the varroa)

The resulting cluster ended up being so small that they couldn't move to the fondant that was there, and starved. Try putting it across multiple frames in future, rather than in a single container (I am guessing it was in a smallish plastic tub)

You are brave for posting the pics, so I can't fault you for that.

You have already worked out that you f*(ked up and killed your bees - we've all done something similar at some point - I'm sure you are unlikely to do the same thing twice!

 

[BugsInABox]

Not sure why posting the pictures makes me brave.

Anyhoo a bit more info if helpful.
They were queenright at final autumn inspection - I suspect the not taking syrup down is a combination of being late and an innate TBH issue.
Nothing for me last summer which I accepted having prioritised year 2 increase. The stuff I took from them - I gave to another hive which was also light (they've made it through - so far).
Did do multiple vapes but you're right it's hard to do drops in a TBH (thought I'm rigorous about sugar rolls) - so some guess work; was also late I suspect (learning point). Had hoped Randy's delayed release OA strips would be a bail out - but no :-(
I'm surprised by the level of varroa suspected (is this from the crumbly poop) with my understanding being that the issue with a late vape is not so much that you end with high mite levels but that the damage is already done to the overwinter bees; is that jut wrong? Is the huge varroa level suggestion x 3 above unarguable, any dissent to this view? On another thread their was some suggestion the crumble could be crystals - but I'll take the criticism if I'm grasping at straws.
The syrup I did check carefully, it's a garden hive and I still love inspections so was very aware the syrup wasn't delivering the required quantities, but 'what to do' except make sure they have fondant. I also new they were small and think now I should probably have combined them with the colony I robbed them for (learning point). Thanks for the tip re fondant over a few bars - I suspect you're exactly right. Maybe at each end of the cluster would have been a practical TBH compromise (though that would have disturbed them more).

 

[Hachi]

Lots of varroa poop visible.

Really where? Genuine Q

 

[Erichalfbee]

Really where? Genuine Q

Here’s a couple of frame close ups

 

[Boston Bees]

Really where? Genuine Q

The white specks in all the brood cells.

 

[Nige.Coll]

white specs could also be fondant.

Biggest thing is the varroa treatment is supposed to be done before the winter bees are raised. You need the winter bees as healthy as possible. Varroa shortens the life of bees so having high varroa when the winter bees are raised is kind of a big issue. Depleted fat bodies in bees that rely on their fat bodies.
The oa strips aren't an approved treatment here, is there a temperature they work at ?
Syrup won't be taken down if it's too cold or queenless, maybe make a frame feeder for future feeding if top bar hives have an issue with taking from normal feeders.
I treated my hives with 1 vape in September, they are all alive so far. They have a brood break in September before the Ivy flow, not bad for bees raised from imported Buckfast.
No brood or attempts at brood, none chilled or dead in cells.
How do you know it was queenright ? got to ask.

Tip, if you open your pictures in another window and zoom in you can see varroa on some bees. Not loads but they are there.
Are you sure activity at the entrance wasn't just robbing ? Your surviving colony could have picked up a lot of varroa if it was.
Colony was quite small by the looks of it maybe an insulated nuc would of been more suitable for them.

Edit: dead drones on the floor also.

 

[BugsInABox]

Looking at my notes, BIAS late October.
Full varroa story.
They had a single dribble when broodless in June. Sugar role sept - 3 mites/half-cup. Subsequent vape x3 into October. I didn't roll then again which I regret (I suspect because I was concerned they were small).

Re drones: I'd noticed in the autumn they were tolerating a few drones on the frames - having kicked the rest out late August, is it a sign of anything. This Queens mother also raised a lot of late drone the previous year (and tolerated some after the rest were expelled) Still built up well in the spring I think.
I have an observation window on this hive so I know they were alive January.

Though some seem certain from these pics, late vape shouldn't give you high winter varroa numbers should it? (As the so called phoretic mites still get knocked down). With the harm coming from already weakened winter bees. I'll have a look at them tomorrow, under a glass and light, and look for mites. I'm struggling to see many on the photos personally.

Don't think the OA strips are yet approved in the states either; Randy Oliver has just published his summer 2000 trials in Scientific Beekeeping - interesting read++. Has anyone else on hear tried them with a happier outcome?

Neil

 

[Boston Bees]

Looking at my notes, BIAS late October.
Full varroa story.
They had a single dribble when broodless in June. Sugar role sept - 3 mites/half-cup. Subsequent vape x3 into October. I didn't roll then again which I regret (I suspect because I was concerned they were small).

Re drones: I'd noticed in the autumn they were tolerating a few drones on the frames - having kicked the rest out late August, is it a sign of anything. This Queens mother also raised a lot of late drone the previous year (and tolerated some after the rest were expelled) Still built up well in the spring I think.
I have an observation window on this hive so I know they were alive January.

Though some seem certain from these pics, late vape shouldn't give you high winter varroa numbers should it? (As the so called phoretic mites still get knocked down). With the harm coming from already weakened winter bees. I'll have a look at them tomorrow, under a glass and light, and look for mites. I'm struggling to see many on the photos personally.

Don't think the OA strips are yet approved in the states either; Randy Oliver has just published his summer 2000 trials in Scientific Beekeeping - interesting read++. Has anyone else on hear tried them with a happier outcome?

Neil

I'm no expert but:

You can't tell much by looking for varroa on bees in a dead hive. The varroa did their damage in brood cells while the winter bees were developing, back in September and October. The varroa population has since crashed with no new brood to reproduce in. Your bees died of viruses introduced by the varroa, while in the cells. Even if you then killed the mites in their phoretic state, the damage was already done.

Your 3 vapes sound maybe a month too late I think, if mostly done in October. David Evans suggests treating as early as August I think, to protect the winter bees as they start to be produced. But definitely September not October.

Others can give better advice I'm sure

 

[BugsInABox]

Yes winter bees doomed from fat body compromise. Or did they just starve/freeze? If the varroa population has crashed (because of, as you say, lack of brood but also the late treatment) why are some respondents seeing signs of high mite load? I'm grateful for the comments by the way, just trying to get it to sit right in my head. Could the white specs be fondant/other as suggested?

 

[beeno]

Hi Neil, I remember you telling the forum that your bees were not taking the syrup in the autumn and me thinking something must ail them as mine were taking theirs. From what I gather they went into winter as a small colony with little stores. The BIAS you had in Oct. would represent the full complement of winter bees - perhaps not enough. There are no stores on the frames that I can see, so I am inclined to think they died from starvation/isolation starvation. The frames look too clean for them to have died from PMS, no dead larvae or deformed wings on the adult bees (I only have a small screen though). I do not think all the crumbs in the cells are guanine deposits as they are placed at the ceilings of the cells rather than laying on the floors and they are bright white, but it could be the camera. I think that Dani was joking about tasting the varroa deposits to make sure it was not sugar - I wouldn't. It would appear that they did not have any brood, but I guess that is the result of not having any food. Did you find the queen amongst them? I have copied one of Rusty's photo's to better show guanine deposits. Most colonies that die during the winter die end Feb beginning of March. You are not on your own!

 

[Erichalfbee]

I think that Dani was joking about tasting the varroa deposits to make sure it was not sugar - I wouldn't.

Actually, I have done it.

 

[Boston Bees]

Could the white specs be fondant/other as suggested?

But if so, why are they in virtually every brood cell but hardly present in the clean cells across the top where the stores were, and where, presumably, any fondant would have been stored?

 

[Boston Bees]

Yes winter bees doomed from fat body compromise. Or did they just starve/freeze?

Isn't this a false dichotomy? The answers is all of the above, with the varroa and the removal of stores as the two key factors. The population had a shortened lifespan due to varroa infestation in the cells, thus the population got smaller, and weaker, than it would otherwise have been, so couldn't travel to the food you provided, or keep itself warm enough.

A little bit like the analogy of a plane which runs out of fuel at 30,000 feet. What killed the passengers? The fuel running out or the plane hitting the ground? Not a perfect analogy in this situation I know.

 

[Murox]

I think that Dani was joking about tasting the varroa deposits to make sure it was not sugar - I wouldn't.

Actually, I have done it.

Why not just use Benedict's solution to test for simple sugar like fructose or glucose?

 

[North End Bees]

Why not just use Benedict's solution to test for simple sugar like fructose or glucose?

Because tasting things is strangely satisfying!

 

[Erichalfbee]

Because tasting things is strangely satisfying!

And instant. Now where did I put my Benedicts solution. Pantry maybe?