Alternatives to Buckfast bees

[melias]

I've been beekeeping for about 6 years and thought I'd try an alternative strain to Buckfasts. My main problem has been aggressiveness of the second generation queens.
Any suggestions on a calm strain that is bred in the UK and suited to Southern British weather?

On a recent visit to Poland, I was flabbergasted to see a beekeeper put his bare hands into the entrance of a hive, provoking no attack response at all. Not sure what breed they were, but I can't imagine doing that with my bees!

 

[MuswellMetro]

I've been beekeeping for about 6 years and thought I'd try an alternative strain to Buckfasts. My main problem has been aggressiveness of the second generation queens.
Any suggestions on a calm strain that is bred in the UK and suited to Southern British weather?

On a recent visit to Poland, I was flabbergasted to see a beekeeper put his bare hands into the entrance of a hive, provoking no attack response at all. Not sure what breed they were, but I can't imagine doing that with my bees!

I expect they would be Apis mellifera carnica AKA Carniolin Honeybees

AMC can be difficult to manage their swarming instinct and said by some to need always 3 frames of free comb for the queen to lay in order to stop them swarming usually done by demarre or double brood . A friend imports new Carniolan Queen each year and requeens 90% of his 40 hives. The germans in the 1930/40s did ethnic Bee Cleansing and almost wiped out the native German AMM Black Bee and replaced them with AMC, restriction of Queens that can be bred is still enforced in some parts of Europe

 

[Tremyfro]

I have carniolans...F1... They are nice to handle, very quiet on the comb. Certainly you could inspect without gloves. I haven't found them to be swarmy so far...but of course that could just be lucky!
The only bees that have swarmed were from a Buckfast colony...and I was glad to say goodbye....they were more runny on the comb and buzzy in comparison.
The F2 carniolans have been just the same in temperament as the original queen, and were open mated. I decided to requeen my main colonies every second year...if the queen survived. I am not breeding F3s...on the premise that they are more likely to turn aggressive...which is what everyone tells me is likely to happen. I don't know though.

 

[B+.]

I expect they would be Apis mellifera carnica AKA Carniolin Honeybees

AMC can be difficult to manage their swarming instinct and said by some to need always 3 frames of free comb for the queen to lay in order to stop them swarming usually done by demarre or double brood . A friend imports new Carniolan Queen each year and requeens 90% of his 40 hives.

I think it depends a lot on where you acquire your stock from. Wherever there are people who want to buy queens, there will always be those who supply them. Not always the best of queens though.
You should see how packed some of my colonies are

 

[Finman]

I've been beekeeping for about 6 years and thought I'd try an alternative strain to Buckfasts. My main problem has been aggressiveness of the second generation queens.
Any suggestions on a calm strain that is bred in the UK and suited to Southern British weather?

On a recent visit to Poland, I was flabbergasted to see a beekeeper put his bare hands into the entrance of a hive, provoking no attack response at all. Not sure what breed they were, but I can't imagine doing that with my bees!

Poland has bred much Caucasian bee. But as report says, it has been mixed to Carniolan there. Caucasian bee is even calmer than Carniolan.

.

 

[praha]

I live in the Czech Republic, where we have Carniolan bees. On a visit to the local bee institute, the man in charge handed me a frame of bees, without veil or gloves and picked out the queen, letting her walk all over his hands. No attack. My bees on the other hand are the same breed but would kick yr ass if you tried any silly business...

 

[bpmurray]

I don't know if it's possible where you are, but you should consider having the same strain as your neighbours. The idea is that this would reduce cross-breeding and the consequent impact on aggression.

Where I live, I'm surrounded by AMM which are traditionally not at all friendly. However since the queens only mate with AMM drones, I don't get that mongrel nastiness at all: they're at a constant level of being aware of me and buzzing, but if my gloves get a single sting, it's usually my fault for squishing one.

 

[madasafish]

I have F4 carniolans. I keep them with bare hands but with a veil. But they swarm..

On the other hand they single handedly replaced 3 of the 7 hives I lost through AFB last year.. So with every con there is a pro..

 

[B+.]

I live in the Czech Republic, where we have Carniolan bees. On a visit to the local bee institute, the man in charge handed me a frame of bees, without veil or gloves and picked out the queen, letting her walk all over his hands. No attack. My bees on the other hand are the same breed but would kick yr ass if you tried any silly business...

The instutes do an excellent job at breedng bees. Its just a pity we don't have organisations like those in the UK.
I test Carnica queens for Institut für Bienenkunde Celle and will also receive some of the new Dutch line in about a week as well as the VSH line in August. At the moment, I am frantically marking and introducing virgin queens that are emerging in my incubator (http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751)

 

[Alabamaeee]

The other alternative is to buy an island bred Queen or one that was bred in an isolated area, then use her to breed from.

Select the best F1's from her and replace them with another good F1 when required. You still have the problem of free mated F1's but can select for best behaviour if you raise more Q's than you need.

 

[thenovice]

where does this common accepted wisdom that F3 becomes aggressive come from? Is there a genetic explanation for this such as a suppressor gene that gets diluted in the crosses or is it just hogwash and is the F3 just as likely to be gentle as aggressive depending on the mongrels it has crossed with?

I only have F3s and further diluted bees and have had a bit of both... the only buckfast colony I have ever had is now F3 and not more aggressive than when I bought the original queen.

 

[melias]

I have had multiple experiences where the progeny queens F2 of purchased gentle buckfast queens have been vile. Not sure if it's a trait of buckfasts per se, but no question that it is a regular occurrence.

 

[B+.]

Not sure if it's a trait of buckfasts per se, but no question that it is a regular occurrence.

I don't believe that it is limited to Buckfasts. If you take anything that has been selectively bred and introduce wild genes from the environment, you are bound to dilute the characteristics that you had with each successive generation.

 

[Motobiman]

But why should that turn a hive of bees that are passive into aggressive in one generation?

 

[B+.]

But why should that turn a hive of bees that are passive into aggressive in one generation?

Genetics. Only half of the chromosomes come from the queen. The other half come from the *several* drones she mates with. This gives you a number of sub-families within the worker population. If the majority of them are "mean", the colony will be aggressive. This is why it is possibly more important to select the mother of the drones (or, the mother of the queens that provide the drones)

 

[Finman]

where does this common accepted wisdom that F3 becomes aggressive come from? Is there a genetic explanation for this.

I is a vast experience in open mating.

When the Queen comes from controlled mating, its features are what they are. You msy by ready devils. You do not need to wait third generation.

I have done 50 years so, that I buy 3 queens from well known Queen breeders and I take daughters from those. Most oc those queens are not good, and I abandon them.

Genetiv explanation....

I buy a queen, and next generation has 50% original genes

Next generation, the third has only 25% original genes.

They do not need to bee agressive, but variation is big between new queens. There are one box layers and 3 box layers, and they have large variation in other wanted features.

So, original features, why you liked the queen, have mostly disappeared. Queens are then typical mongrels. You may compare them to dog crossings.

Non aggressive bees are made by human selection. When tame strain are crossed without selection, the bee returns to its original gene format: Protect your hive, do sex = sting, swarm.

I may cross hives in closed environment , and they do not get outside angry genes . But te more harmfull feature will soon come in hobby beekeepig: It is inbreeding and weakness instead of hybrid vigour.

 

[Fusion_power]

Re Buckfast becoming aggressive when crossed, Brother Adam got that when he crossed with Anatolians and with Saharans. We could speculate that there is a gene in the line bred Buckfast that causes aggression when the suppression is removed by a cross.

 

[For want of a better word]

Re Buckfast becoming aggressive when crossed, Brother Adam got that when he crossed with Anatolians and with Saharans. We could speculate that there is a gene in the line bred Buckfast that causes aggression when the suppression is removed by a cross.

GOT IT Buckarts = Cross bees..

what is a Buckfarst bee anyway?

Yeghes da

 

[beebopper]

Could we not also say that in many parts of the uk our bees are a messed up hybrid of all sorts - no going back now so so for many of us there is no option but to requeening regularly.

 

[Nige.Coll]

I run mongrels. They are fine don't get aggressive when mated and don't cost me anything to buy.
I also have some amm the jury is out on those atm.
It's easy to fall into the buying queens game but I have avoided it.
The SBI was happy with them he said he would like some of the colonies and I am happy with them but I don't look at other peoples bees so I have no comparison.