Aggressive Hive

[Lisbanoe]

I have an aggressive hive on brood and a half. I had to add a super at the weekend. They're very productive, but I dread opening them. I barely get the crown board cracked open and they rise up in a cloud, pinging off my veil. They're getting really big so I'm dreading having to go through the boxes looking for swarm cells.

So I think my options are: Re-queen, or split into nucs.

I have only seen the queen in this hive once when she was marked, she's hide and seek champion of the world. She has brood on 8 frames in the Brood Box and 6 in the super. Brood in all stages. Boxes bursting with bees. No signs of disease. I don't fancy my chances of finding her to re-queen.

I would like to make increases so I'm debating splitting it up into nucs with brood from nicer hives. I'll remove any cells made from her eggs. I've seen freshly emerged drones in a few hives so in 3 weeks or so they'll be mature? I had read about moving the hive to another stand and putting an empty box in its place to syphon off the foragers. Am I right in thinking the foragers will raise queen cells if I put in a frame of nice queen's brood? And that will make it easier to go through the remaining bees to find the queen.

So I can set up 1 nuc with the foragers and possibly two others with the remaining nurse bees. I have a couple of other really big hives I can take a frame of eggs from and their queens are very nice. I'm planning on dispatching the naughty queen. using her for a swarm attractant possibly. So I was going to wait another week or two, by the time they raised queen cells there should be a good few mature drones on the go.

Any thoughts or tips?

 

[Ian123]

Not a good idea to let foragers raise cells. Perhaps leave the old queen with the foragers then let the queen less section with brood raise cells from decent hives. Productivity is nothing to do with aggression!

 

[Lisbanoe]

Thanks for that, I wasn't sure about the foragers. My main problem is trying to find her. But if I separate it into 3 sections I'll know soon enough which one she's in I suppose.

 

[Antipodes]

I have an aggressive hive on brood and a half. I had to add a super at the weekend. They're very productive, but I dread opening them. I barely get the crown board cracked open and they rise up in a cloud, pinging off my veil. They're getting really big so I'm dreading having to go through the boxes looking for swarm cells.

So I think my options are: Re-queen, or split into nucs.

I have only seen the queen in this hive once when she was marked, she's hide and seek champion of the world. She has brood on 8 frames in the Brood Box and 6 in the super. Brood in all stages. Boxes bursting with bees. No signs of disease. I don't fancy my chances of finding her to re-queen.

I would like to make increases so I'm debating splitting it up into nucs with brood from nicer hives. I'll remove any cells made from her eggs. I've seen freshly emerged drones in a few hives so in 3 weeks or so they'll be mature? I had read about moving the hive to another stand and putting an empty box in its place to syphon off the foragers. Am I right in thinking the foragers will raise queen cells if I put in a frame of nice queen's brood? And that will make it easier to go through the remaining bees to find the queen.

So I can set up 1 nuc with the foragers and possibly two others with the remaining nurse bees. I have a couple of other really big hives I can take a frame of eggs from and their queens are very nice. I'm planning on dispatching the naughty queen. using her for a swarm attractant possibly. So I was going to wait another week or two, by the time they raised queen cells there should be a good few mature drones on the go.

Any thoughts or tips?

I've heard of raising queens using bees that have orientated. My understanding is that they will not all be "foragers" as bees will orientate prior to becoming foragers., ie. at a younger age.

https://theapiarist.org/orientation-flights/

 

[Ian123]

To a degree but the vast majority will be foragers!…There is no literature that suggests raising queens using older bees!

 

[blackcloud]

Strip the the hive down to the crownboard then move the broodbox and floor away from its location and leave it for ten minutes or so (on a foraging day) to bleed off the older bees .This can help you have a slightly calmer box to find the queen.
Of course you have to run the gauntlet when replacing the hive.
But you need to do a more permanent fix long term

 

[Ian123]

Strip the the hive down to the crownboard then move the broodbox and floor away from its location and leave it for ten minutes or so (on a foraging day) to bleed off the older bees .This can help you have a slightly calmer box to find the queen.
Of course you have to run the gauntlet when replacing the hive.
But you need to do a more permanent fix long term

But once she’s done that and found the queen she can replace her and frame of brood she’s on plus some stores. Leaving the other half to raise a queen from desired hive. Obviously will have to knock back anything they make on their own brood!

 

[Cuckmere couple]

how many times have you assessed that they are aggressive....i have had v aggressive colonies on occasion which were aggressive because of other circumstances and were calmer on other occasions

and i don't think you have to avoid her eggs for raising a calmer queen? i have had calm daughters of aggressive mothers (still talking bees!)

 

[Lisbanoe]

Thanks for the tips. I have a good idea of what to do now, with a bit of luck her majesty will be sitting nice and calm on the first frame I pull! I really have to do it soon, so I'm not doing swarm control inspections on that behemoth every week!

 

[Lisbanoe]

how many times have you assessed that they are aggressive....i have had v aggressive colonies on occasion which were aggressive because of other circumstances and were calmer on other occasions

and i don't think you have to avoid her eggs for raising a calmer queen? i have had calm daughters of aggressive mothers (still talking bees!)

She was a split from last July. At EVERY inspection they've been spicy. I have another split from the same Queen she's from and they're grand. The problem is, i could handle them when there was only a few frames. But, she's one of the biggest colonies I've got now. Brood and a half and nearly bursting out of that. I don't open her if there's any sign of rain or wind, even though the rest of my colonies don't much care. I've tried being extra gentle, but it just gives them more time to find my weak spots.. I think its just her personality!

 

[Ian123]

and i don't think you have to avoid her eggs for raising a calmer queen? i have had calm daughters of aggressive mothers (still talking bees!)

The OP has hives that are calmer or better natured so why take the chance. There’s enough of a chance that even from a good hive and random matings they may not be the best, so why add to the matter. Random local mongrels even from well selected hives are unfortunately very unpredictable!

 

[Antipodes]

To a degree but the vast majority will be foragers!…There is no literature that suggests raising queens using older bees!

It's not literature suggesting raising queens using older bees per se. Bees can start to orientate from three days of age (so the studies show), which is apparently some time before they are foragers, so if you move an entrance or hive, bees that have already marked their location will not all be older foraging bees.
Henry Schaefer from Wisconsin (he was a former president of the US National Beekeepers Federation) wrote about it and used the method (it was sort of like a modified or reverse Demaree), after his long and hard work trying many methods to set up the ideal routine. He previously had used the Demaree method (with success) but looked to "build a better mousetrap". He apparently assiduously avoided any method where he had to find the queen . He described using... "All field bees and many young bees that have recently marked their hive location. A strong parent colony will have many field and young bees that will now build excellent queen cells especially if there are already eggs in queen cups".

 

[Mabee]

I would do as suggested above and remove the hive to another spot so you can find the queen, you can always split the frames between nucs till you find her. I’d then dispatch her, i’d also remove any drone brood, no point in letting those generics loose on others. One option is you could take the box of flying bees and unite with a gentler hive and let the younger bees raise a queen, not from the original though, i’d knock all queen cells down they make and give them a frame of just hatched larvae from a good hive. They may be easier to handle that way. I had one hive like that and I know how unpleasant inspecting them can be. Good luck!

 

[OldFarm]

It might be worth culling all the drone to keep them out of the mating pool.

 

[Anduril]

To a degree but the vast majority will be foragers!…There is no literature that suggests raising queens using older bees!

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...AQFnoECCcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2rl3mpHRUd7xPEyJYKve7qThis is one of a few studies. Reversal of the hypopharyngeal glands in older workers.
I have also used the method with defensive colonies and they do produce queens that last for a few years.