Advice needed re defensive hive requeening

[Barnowl]

This is my first post although I have been on your site lurking and learning for the past year. I need advice regarding a very defensive hive please.
This hive was one part of an artificial swarm in June -it was the nurse bee part and was left with a queen cell . Queen emerged,mated and was laying in late June.
It has always been a little bit defensive when being inspected but was manageable. I took 2 supers off it 2weeks ago no problem, put supers back on for them to clean ,still no problem then a couple of days later when I tried to take clean supers off they were very vicious as soon as I lifted the crown board many bees covered my suit immediately stinging. I aborted my mission and retreated with many stings through my suit and gloves.
I don’t think it is hunger as there is another super on which is half full of stores. They are not being bothered by wasps.
I have access to a laying queen from a nuc that is being combined so thought I would try to requeen.
Plan ; move hive away by few metres to separate main brood from flying bees.
Put new queen in cage with some drawn frames and some brood on original site so that flying bees go back there and hopefully accept that queen.
Then go through brood box to see what is going on and find queen ,destroy her and recombine the brood at original site.
Questions; is it likely that the flying bees will accept the queen?
Would it be better to introduce new queen to the nurse bees first?
Will nurse bees be less feisty than foragers?
Is it likely that they will become calmer again without requeening?
Would I be better to leave decision until Spring?
cheers J

 

[drex]

I never decide on a matter of defensiveness on just one or two inspections, especially if as you say it has been manageable in the past. There are so many variables. I often find it will be different if left a little while. Still plenty of time for combine if that is what is needed

 

[Barnowl]

I never decide on a matter of defensiveness on just one or two inspections, especially if as you say it has been manageable in the past. There are so many variables. I often find it will be different if left a little while. Still plenty of time for combine if that is what is needed

Thankyou for quick reply, I probably should be more patient but thought I need to act now if I am to get new queen laying before winter. Will give it some time.
cheers J

 

[Patrick1]

I usually give a stroppy hive a few inspections before acting, you have time. They are affected by many things, smoker fuel, weather, banging the hive, sudden lack of foraging any external threat.

After being that I would be inclined to weaken the hive anyway by a couple of frames of brood and nurse bees, these are the ones who’s attitude can be changed I think !

Do that by putting a brood box inside a roof, add the brood frames with bees then shake as many bees from frames as you can fill with frames, then unit this with your spar nuc box.

This will do two things, weaken and hopefully make the aggressive hive more manageable in a couple of weeks’ time at the same time significantly strengthen your nuc for winter.

Downside is two stroppy hives !

Or just leave it, keep it going through winter then split and requeen.

 

[Newbeeneil]

I agree with Drex,
I tend to find hives are very variable at this time of year what with removing supers and the cooler days so wouldn't make a decision until the spring which will give you time to reassess the colony as they build.
I have a couple that have become techy in the last few weeks but I will keep an eye on them in the spring before I make a decision.

 

[Murox]

I agree with Drex,
I tend to find hives are very variable at this time of year what with removing supers and the cooler days so wouldn't make a decision until the spring which will give you time to reassess the colony as they build.
I have a couple that have become techy in the last few weeks but I will keep an eye on them in the spring before I make a decision.

Yes, similar here too. I have one hive that has been 'stroppy' on previous occasions. Yesterday when I went to vape them (it was a cooler cloudy day when I started the day) I also checked their stores, this time they were well behaved. The atmospheric pressure had been pretty stable for a few days beforehand and the sun was shinning so a lot of the workers were out foraging, it all helps.

 

[Barnowl]

Thank you for these replies, I see that I should give more time before deciding to requeen but should I try to go through brood box to assess what is happening or should I leave them be to give them chance to get calmer - it is over 3 weeks since brood box has been checked.

 

[drex]

All I am doing now is varroa treatment, with a quick check on laying , space and stores, only removing a couple of frames if that, if needed, at same time.
At end of the day it really depends on how brave you are

 

[Barnowl]

Ha, yes it has knocked my confidence. I am going to pad my suit with bubblewrap before I brave them again.

 

[Patrick1]

When you next inspect puff the smoke under the mesh floor as well as the opening then give them 5 min to get used to it, have a water spray to hand, when the roof and crown board come of use water first to get them down.

 

[elainemary]

This is my first post although I have been on your site lurking and learning for the past year. I need advice regarding a very defensive hive please.
This hive was one part of an artificial swarm in June -it was the nurse bee part and was left with a queen cell . Queen emerged,mated and was laying in late June.
It has always been a little bit defensive when being inspected but was manageable. I took 2 supers off it 2weeks ago no problem, put supers back on for them to clean ,still no problem then a couple of days later when I tried to take clean supers off they were very vicious as soon as I lifted the crown board many bees covered my suit immediately stinging. I aborted my mission and retreated with many stings through my suit and gloves.
I don’t think it is hunger as there is another super on which is half full of stores. They are not being bothered by wasps.
I have access to a laying queen from a nuc that is being combined so thought I would try to requeen.
Plan ; move hive away by few metres to separate main brood from flying bees.
Put new queen in cage with some drawn frames and some brood on original site so that flying bees go back there and hopefully accept that queen.
Then go through brood box to see what is going on and find queen ,destroy her and recombine the brood at original site.
Questions; is it likely that the flying bees will accept the queen?
Would it be better to introduce new queen to the nurse bees first?
Will nurse bees be less feisty than foragers?
Is it likely that they will become calmer again without requeening?
Would I be better to leave decision until Spring?
cheers J

Hi, I agree with others, don't judge on one experience. Especially at this time of year. Same thing happened to me this week, 2 colonies normally ranked 4 or 5/5 for temper, were jumping on my gloves and stinging. Mind you I'd just taken a super of honey off over a clearer board. Wouldn't dream of trying to change the queen now, just keep monitoring next Spring.

 

[Amaranth]

It is important to wash your gloves and suit before you return - don’t return with the smell of stings on your kit. If you have leather gloves that can’t be washed, change to marigolds that are easy to wash with soda crystals and a scrubber.

 

[Barnowl]

Thanks everyone will let you know the outcome,really appreciate the advice.
cheers J

 

[user 819]

End of the day the traits are down to the Q and genes.
Checked a nuc moved a week ago to my garden which are now in a BB and they are pussycats, hive tool under the cb corner and a puff of smoke (though not really needed) and a very quick rummage inside to check laying and stores. Saw the June Q and promptly clipped her, popped her back in and all ticketyboo.

 

[Hachi]

If and when you are content the bee's are defensive another option is to leave them be, feed and treat in the usual way and let the winter reduce the hive to a more manageable level. Inspect in the spring if there's no change in temperament then finding the Q will be easier with a naturally depleted hive.

 

[user 819]

I lucked in to my present bees/genes with a swarm I collected in early April 2019, very amber Q and bees which one suspects were Italian possibly, likely the queen was a 2018 model. From day one they were pussycats, since then I have had 4th or 5th generation queens from the original genes and give the open mating they have kept to being gentle and good producers, traits on the comb is calm and no boiling over when opening.
The crosses are occurring locally as the Qs are now darker but that said one of them is back to amber colour.
One downside is they are a bit swarmy but that said they don't produce dozens of QC's, 2 - 6 seems to be their norm. The 2018/19 Q was finally SS this year having been placed in a nuc and currently a 2020 Q has been SS.
The swarming I can deal with as they are quite predictable, clipping helps considerably.

 

[Barnowl]

End of the day the traits are down to the Q and genes.
Checked a nuc moved a week ago to my garden which are now in a BB and they are pussycats, hive tool under the cb corner and a puff of smoke (though not really needed) and a very quick rummage inside to check laying and stores. Saw the June Q and promptly clipped her, popped her back in and all ticketyboo.

Yes it is understandable that the queen will influence bees traits. I have a very gentle hive which I will try to raise queens from next year but is it also advisable/useful to put extra drone foundation in to have more drones with those traits too?

 

[elainemary]

Yes it is understandable that the queen will influence bees traits. I have a very gentle hive which I will try to raise queens from next year but is it also advisable/useful to put extra drone foundation in to have more drones with those traits too?

Yes! I’ve started to add a super frame in colonies with traits I like. The colony then builds the comb they want below - usually drone. In the wild colonies will have around 20% drone brood as they build the comb they want. We tend to influence this downwards, by only giving worker foundation

 

[Patrick1]

It should be remembered that the drone represents ¾ of the progeny, your best hive should be used for drone rearing, flood the area with drones from this hive.
It should be the a large hive to allow the drone larva to be well fed, under nourished drones will not help.

 

[Barnowl]

It should be remembered that the drone represents ¾ of the progeny, your best hive should be used for drone rearing, flood the area with drones from this hive.
It should be the a large hive to allow the drone larva to be well fed, under nourished drones will not help.

Thankyou, will do that next season. I appreciate the advice. Cheers J