3 season old feral colony.

[jenkinsbrynmair]

They were saying that the Zest hive was much warmer than conventional hives used in the UK...being built from insulating blocks......the bees could maintain year round brood nest temperatures. They were saying that research was suggesting that a higher temperature....maintained within the brood nest was shortening the time that brood required in the larval form...that they were out in 1-2 days less. This apparently shortened the time the varroa had for breeding...hence a lighter varroa load.

Good news for the SHB when it arrives - no winter brood break for them either

 

[Finman]

N

When I went to the Spring Convention...I had a long conversation with the men at the Zest hive tables. We talked about varroa treatments. They were not treating for varroa. They were of the opinion that the varroa load was very small in the Zest hive. They were saying that the Zest hive was much warmer than conventional hives used in the UK...being built from insulating blocks......the bees could maintain year round brood nest temperatures. They were saying that research was suggesting that a higher temperature....maintained within the brood nest was shortening the time that brood required in the larval form...that they were out in 1-2 days less. This apparently shortened the time the varroa had for breeding...hence a lighter varroa load. The attraction to drone brood cells was because of the extra time which allowed the varroa to breed. The shorter brood times were more on a par with Asian bee brood times. It made it easier for the bees to tolerate the varroa.
The Zest hive...being a long hive allowed the beekeeper to take honey and add frames without intruding into the nest area. Hence, little loss of heat and less disturbance to the brood nest. Interesting.

That old nonsense saga, warmer brood area, but now in chilly Britain. Insulated warm hive kills mites. That simple.

Bees keep steady brood temp in insulated hives too.

And keep brooding temp year around. ... That guy does not know much about bees.
.

 

[Chris B]

I should breed from those mites and I am not entirely kidding.

Great idea.

 

[Fatbee]

This subject is a bit like wasps, seems to be very polarised one way or the other. I have a 2012 swarm (yes one of mine!) in a tree in my apiary that has had no break - bees flying on warm winter days and pollen going in at start of spring since - will be interested to see if this is the year they don't make it. Suppose it depends as well on what summer we'll get. Yet to catch a swarm from them and comes from stock I've had to re-queen on aggression so not sure if I want them to continue throwing their drones in to my population!

 

[Tremyfro]

N


That old nonsense saga, warmer brood area, but now in chilly Britain. Insulated warm hive kills mites. That simple.

Bees keep steady brood temp in insulated hives too.

And keep brooding temp year around. ... That guy does not know much about bees.
.

No...if you read my post...I did not say that the warmer brood area kills mites.....I said the man was claiming, that research showed, that a warmer nest allowed the bee larvae to come out earlier...1-2 days...which meant fewer mature varroa. The buildup during the summer months would be slower....
I was just repeating what I had been told....I didn't say that I endorsed it. I thought it was of interest...especially since the brood nest did not have as much interference as is usual in a conventional hive box.
I am aware that it is the disease that varroa carry into the colony which is the greater danger.
I was also interested to hear about research into the 'attractant' mechanism which ensures the varroa are able to get into the cells, especially drone cells, prior to capping. The hope being that they can isolate the attractant to varroa and make a trap. Now that would be a great help to us all.
When SHB arrives here...I think there will be some adjustments for us to make to help reduce the impact. Zest hives and similar setups will be vulnerable as there would be so many hiding places!

 

[Finman]

No...if you read my post...I did not say that the warmer brood area kills mites.....I said the man was claiming, that research showed, that a warmer nest allowed the bee larvae to come out earlier...1-2 days...which meant fewer mature varroa. The buildup during the summer months would be slower....
!

Yes, I understood. I have seen these stories 10 years ago

Mellifera scutellata (African bee) has 3 days shorter brood cycle than European bees.

I have not seen any research about European bee that it has shorter brood cycle than 21 days.

You surely understand that there are warmer countries than Britain, and the warmer the country the worse to kill varroa. There counties where out temp exceed 35C. Then beehives are in trouble but not mites.

I could say, not fair marketing of hives.

.

 

[Dishmop]

I have a 5 year old untreated hive... which originated from some free bees that took a liking to the hive sitting in the garden waiting for a nuc I had bought...

 

[Finman]

.
First of all, bees should bring honey. Mite killing is not a purpose of beekeeping.

In USA pollinating service is a big business.

 

[user 6228]

When I went to the Spring Convention...I had a long conversation with the men at the Zest hive tables. We talked about varroa treatments. They were not treating for varroa. They were of the opinion that the varroa load was very small in the Zest hive. They were saying that the Zest hive was much warmer than conventional hives used in the UK...being built from insulating blocks......the bees could maintain year round brood nest temperatures. They were saying that research was suggesting that a higher temperature....maintained within the brood nest was shortening the time that brood required in the larval form...that they were out in 1-2 days less. This apparently shortened the time the varroa had for breeding...hence a lighter varroa load. The attraction to drone brood cells was because of the extra time which allowed the varroa to breed. The shorter brood times were more on a par with Asian bee brood times. It made it easier for the bees to tolerate the varroa.
The Zest hive...being a long hive allowed the beekeeper to take honey and add frames without intruding into the nest area. Hence, little loss of heat and less disturbance to the brood nest. Interesting.

I also had a long conversation with the men from Zest. They need to do more study on heat flow

I will have a go at modelling their hive at some date.

 

[Thymallus]

hat research showed, that a warmer nest allowed the bee larvae to come out earlier...1-2 days...which meant fewer mature varroa. !

I think you missed Finnmans point which is that whatever type of hive bees are kept in they maintain the same temperature inside. Poly/wood/tree/zest hive or whatever. So they don't have a "warmer" nest. Although bees use less stores to maintain that 35oC temp in well insulated hives. Sales pitch me thinks.

However insect larval development times are temperature dependent. Perhaps instead of looking for hygienic bees we should be looking to see if elevated temps will accelerate worker larval development. It may not as they me at the optimum temp.....but if so we should then be looking for those hives with slightly elevated brood nest temperatures, rather than looking to breed from small heavily parasitised "feral" colonies.

 

[Finman]

.
And now you are going to breed hot blooded bee strain? Just like that, because one colony has lives 3 years in same hole?

In Apis cerana nest brood temperature is 18-33C.

 

[Thymallus]

Nope I'm not.

 

[kazmcc]

The colony I saw swarm the other day have been in the church spire for many years, and I often wonder how they are managing varroa. However they are doing it, they produced a good sized swarm the other day. I would have loved to get a close look at them.

 

[Finman]

.
It works so that when colony dies, its old combs invite a new swarm there every spring. It went that way before days of varroa.
I followed one hive, which seemed to live inside a building wall 8 years. I even mated virgins near that hive. The colonies were mad. Never again

We had in Finland beeks, which actually never nursed their hives. They just took some honey from hives. If colony died, they got soon a new colony. Varroa killed that kind of beekeepers.

 

[kazmcc]

.
It works so that when colony dies, its old combs invite a new swarm there every spring. It went that way before days of varroa.

I've heard that said before Finman, but surely they made it through the last winter at least to be at a point where they were able to swarm? Is that right?

 

[Tremyfro]

I think you missed Finnmans point which is that whatever type of hive bees are kept in they maintain the same temperature inside. Poly/wood/tree/zest hive or whatever. So they don't have a "warmer" nest. Although bees use less stores to maintain that 35oC temp in well insulated hives. Sales pitch me thinks.

However insect larval development times are temperature dependent. Perhaps instead of looking for hygienic bees we should be looking to see if elevated temps will accelerate worker larval development. It may not as they me at the optimum temp.....but if so we should then be looking for those hives with slightly elevated brood nest temperatures, rather than looking to breed from small heavily parasitised "feral" colonies.

No I didn't misunderstand Finman. I know it is said that the brood nest is maintained at a regular temperature, whatever the hive...clearly more difficult in non insulated hives. Part of the discussion was about elevated brood nest temperatures. How it affected brood timings ...bee sauna.... And so on. He was ruminating about whether this was helping the colonies in the Zest hive.

 

[Thymallus]

Exactly, but as the bees keep it at exactly the same temp as every other hive.....??

 

[Finman]

.
I have had polyhives as long as I have had varroa.

I have warmed hives with terrarium heaters 10 years. Mites have loved heat.

I have seen what happens when heating is too strong. Bees abandon combs and larvae and go to hang in cool corners and on cool walls. I have seen too, that if bees cannot control brood temperature, brood become sick.

 

[Tremyfro]

I was interested in the heater bees...where it is thought that the small variations in temperature determine the role that each bee carries out in the hive. I was interested in how this affected the exponential growth of varroa too.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

I was hoping that I'd be able to report to the forum the case of a feral colony in the roof of a local farmhouse that has been there for 3 years, possibly longer. I thought there'd be national recognition for the novice beekeeper who found the holy grail of beekeeping - bees that could defend themselves against varroa and the diseases they spread.

Unfortunately they died out over the winter. They were in the roof of a ground floor extension, very close to the main building, so temperature should not have been a problem. There was plenty of forage last Autumn so stores should have been plentiful. The conclusion has to be that they died out through disease of one sort or another.

This is by no means a significant piece of research - it suggests that feral bees die out if not treated, just the same as hived colonies. The feral bees are not the holy grail - they are just bees that get killed off by disease because nobody treats them and they can not defend themselves.

If memory serves, the work done by Sussex University suggests that something like 1 in 10 colonies exhibits hygienic behaviour and I suppose these could turn up equally in feral or managed colonies, hence to accounts of untreated managed colonies on this forum.

So I'm glad that's all sorted.

CVB