3 season old feral colony.

[BrianO]

Hi

Am due to place a bait hive in garden of a friends holiday home, he has a colony in the eaves of his house right by the sea.

I saw them last season and the colony was huge, masses of bees constantly coming and going laden down with pollen

Confirmed this AM they are still there this spring piling in and out.

Obviously through swarming and supersedure , the queen has been renewed many times... BUT... they have prevailed despite Varoa, for now, three seasons, and definitely have survived 2 winters.

Surely potential here for a strain that maybe exhibits a higher resistance level to the scourge of Varroa.

 

[abm]

Their existance through the years suggests these are a strong colony which has managed varoa.. i would suggest the cast swarms will be as strong.

However this is the start of my second year only... and i'm still learning.

 

[BrianO]

However this is the start of my second year only... and i'm still learning.

Mine too... though hooked well and truly !

Back to these guys, seems to me good potential if I can capture a swarm... any other views ?

 

[wessexmario]

playing "devil's advocate"...

Is there just one colony, or many?
varroa could still be prevalent, having more than one colony in a roof may give the illusion of a single very strong one.

 

[Chris B]

Always keep an open mind, but logically if this colony has truly survived a number of queen generations then that implies all the local bees have the same qualities. In reality those "qualities" are more likely to be excessive swarming (with long brood breaks), rather than varroa resistance. Certainly worth catching a swarm though to find out.

 

[BrianO]

Always keep an open mind, but logically if this colony has truly survived a number of queen generations then that implies all the local bees have the same qualities. In reality those "qualities" are more likely to be excessive swarming (with long brood breaks), rather than varroa resistance. Certainly worth catching a swarm though to find out.

playing "devil's advocate"...

HI Chris, maybe , absolutely maybe, but neither you nor I know, maybe the Holy Grail of varroa part resistant bees ! As in a strain that can co exist like their original far easter hosts that could live with them .

I

s there just one colony, or many?
varroa could still be prevalent, having more than one colony in a roof may give the illusion of a single very strong one.

Hi Wessex. dont think so, due to the entry points being so close, no fighting , as would expect between colonies that effectively shared hive entrances.

 

[Finman]

Many have believed that feral bees can kill mites, but before that they try to kill the beekeeper. Natural instincts you know.

 

[dexter's shed]

rather than waiting with a bait hive, why not just do a cut out and remove them all ?

maybe they are no different from any other bee colony, and if left alone with no outside help of treatments, look after themselves, people seem to think there's varroa resistant bees out there, here's a thought, maybe they are just bees, looking after their own colony, varroa maybe present, my bees have had no treatments in 3yrs either, they are doing just fine

 

[einsteinagogo]

We have two colonies on-site here, in urban listed buildings, that have overwintered at least three winters now. (2012, 2013, and 2014).

and 2012, was the winter, that had many colonies die-out around here.

and before you ask, they are in the building fabric down ventilation shafts....(the estates department at present have decided not to remove or kill them).

last year, I had two swarms off one of them, we await this year again...(hence bait hives on building roofs!)

 

[BrianO]

rather than waiting with a bait hive, why not just do a cut out and remove them all ?

maybe they are no different from any other bee colony, and if left alone with no outside help of treatments, look after themselves, people seem to think there's varroa resistant bees out there, here's a thought, maybe they are just bees, looking after their own colony, varroa maybe present, my bees have had no treatments in 3yrs either, they are doing just fine

Friends house, in area lots of people and kids usually around, cut out I reckon a bit risky.

Your comments re resistant bees, and your 3 year old untreated colony, for someone looking to develop and carefully breed bees with an end goal of bringing on varroa resistant traits , I suspect your bees would be of great interest. As maybe the colony I know of would be. Attended a lecture recently where this was discussed in detail.

 

[rolande]

I saw them last season and the colony was huge

As ChrisB says, it's always good to keep an open mind but the one thing which did strike me was the size of this colony; I think that just about everything I've read regarding bees selected for varroa tolerance (as opposed to new-age crystal powered hive colonies left on their own -which always appear to be better than everyone else's) has pointed to them evolving into smaller colonies.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

just about everything I've read regarding bees selected for varroa tolerance (as opposed to new-age crystal powered hive colonies left on their own -which always appear to be better than everyone else's) has pointed to them evolving into smaller colonies.

Or is it the varroa load preventing them from expanding?

 

[rolande]

That probably has a large bearing in the early years but reports from those who claim long term tf apiaries seem to suggest that colony size does decrease -no doubt a trade-off due to energy diverted into controlling the mite population by which ever means...so yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you on this jbm, inextricably linked -but the same result.

 

[pargyle]

As ChrisB says, it's always good to keep an open mind but the one thing which did strike me was the size of this colony; I think that just about everything I've read regarding bees selected for varroa tolerance (as opposed to new-age crystal powered hive colonies left on their own -which always appear to be better than everyone else's) has pointed to them evolving into smaller colonies.

Now this is the sort of comment that is best left in the mind and not committed to the written word. You would be surprised at the number of beekeepers who are now keeping treatment free bees - successfully - I know of several outside of the ones who frequent the forum. They keep their heads down because they get 'branded' and pilloried by the people who make senseless, unthinking, comments like the above. Yes.... some of us have a view about the world that is slightly off centre but the intimation that we are arrogant is well off track.

I don't believe there is such a thing as varroa resistant bees but what I do think is that some colonies appear to be able to cope with a level of varroa that causes other colonies to collapse or at least appear overcome with continuing high levels of mites.

There must, surely, be some feral colonies that do reflect the successful treatment free regime that some of us are practising. Whether or not these are the Holy Grail I have doubts ... I have a gut feeling that there is more to it than just being free of treatment .. environmental factors (the space in which they live), the local area and the type of forage available, lack of excessive beekeeper intervention, the freedom to build their own comb, even the prevalance of transmittable bee disease within the locality must all play a part - so, what I am saying is that there is also an element of luck involved in keeping bees without treatment.

The OP might get lucky and be able to capture a swarm from this feral colony ... but I doubt that it will be the magic bullet. Start thinking what else can be done to replicate the environment in which they are living ...

And ... I'm not suggesting that treatment free is what everyone should be practising .. it's not the easy road to beekeeping if you want your bees to survive.

 

[Finman]

.
It is almost 20 years ago when US beekeepers brought mite resistant bees from Eastern Siberia and then it has been breeded Russian Bee. It is said Primorsky bee too.

Breeding work has been done in Europe too, and mite resistant bee populations are known in Europe, and you may read about them from internet.

Sadly you may read too, that mite itself have eveloped more dangerous during 20 years.

It is really good, if hobby beekeepers find a solution the most difficult problem im beekeeping. They just find a resistant colony from some hole.

 

[rolande]

You would be surprised at the number of beekeepers who are now keeping treatment free bees - successfully

No, I wouldn't. Over the years I've made the effort to contact quite a few of the one's who claim to have had some level of success as well as having read everything on the subject which I could find.

There must, surely, be some feral colonies that do reflect the successful treatment free regime that some of us are practising

Maybe there are but what has that to do with the average size of a tf colony -whether it's in a roof or a hive?

As an 'extra' slightly off topic, Jamie Ellis mentions, at the end of one of his lectures on the NHS youtube channel, that he's starting a research project into actual colony size, comparisons between wild and managed units (at approx 49:30).

 

[B+.]

did anybody admit to not treating their colonies?

I don't treat.
I am part of a breeding group that is selecting for colonies that manage varroa without treatment. The programme successfully integrated VSH into the Buckfast population last year and is doing the same this year with Carnica.

 

[Tremyfro]

When I went to the Spring Convention...I had a long conversation with the men at the Zest hive tables. We talked about varroa treatments. They were not treating for varroa. They were of the opinion that the varroa load was very small in the Zest hive. They were saying that the Zest hive was much warmer than conventional hives used in the UK...being built from insulating blocks......the bees could maintain year round brood nest temperatures. They were saying that research was suggesting that a higher temperature....maintained within the brood nest was shortening the time that brood required in the larval form...that they were out in 1-2 days less. This apparently shortened the time the varroa had for breeding...hence a lighter varroa load. The attraction to drone brood cells was because of the extra time which allowed the varroa to breed. The shorter brood times were more on a par with Asian bee brood times. It made it easier for the bees to tolerate the varroa.
The Zest hive...being a long hive allowed the beekeeper to take honey and add frames without intruding into the nest area. Hence, little loss of heat and less disturbance to the brood nest. Interesting.

 

[B+.]

The shorter brood times were more on a par with Asian bee brood times. It made it easier for the bees to tolerate the varroa.

While it is true to say an increase in temperature and humidity can shorten the pupation period of a queen, I don't think it is as significant as you were told. Perhaps this was a bit of sales talk.
I use the high density poly hives from Finland which, I agree, does insulate the colony well and they can survive with less stores than those kept in wooden hives. I don't believe this is the reason that they manage varroa better though.

If you read "Bee genetics and breeding" by Thomas E. Rinderer, you will see that the expression of a characteristic has both a genetic and an environmental component. I think the sales pitch was claiming all the expression was environmental. It isn't.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

It made it easier for the bees to tolerate the varroa.

Just on a point of order, varroa THEMSELVES have negligible impact. The problem is the disease they carry. Varroa manifestly evolve and theoretically do so faster than honeybees. Their optimal strategy is to become less-good disease vectors and there must be some hope that that is happening. I was appalled to drop 8,000 mites out of one of my colonies in September but the colony showed, and shows (I had to AS it on Saturday) no ill effects. I should breed from those mites and I am not entirely kidding.