2018 Bee poll - which race?

[Noddy]

You need to find a reliable Buckfast breeder, preferably one that doesn't advertise in the glossies. My main supplier has consistently provided outstanding queens. It's when I've bought from the "stack 'em high, sell 'em cheap route" that I've had quite variable offerings, some even being a bit feisty!

Hit and miss refers to open mating, and the (usually) less than favourable results with fastbucks. Carnies seem to retain more favourable traits after open mating, more consistently.

 

[Beefriendly]

Hit and miss refers to open mating, and the (usually) less than favourable results with fastbucks. Carnies seem to retain more favourable traits after open mating, more consistently.

Interesting.
Where your Buckfast queens open mated or Isolated?
I find using isolated mated queens that the F1's are excellent every time....however if I breed from these "open mated" queens them the F2 has about a 50:50 chance of being aggressive. I try not to breed too many F2's... I currently have one that has slipped through and attempts to re-queen them will ongoing today.

 

[foghornleghorn]

Interesting.
Where your Buckfast queens open mated or Isolated?
I find using isolated mated queens that the F1's are excellent every time....however if I breed from these "open mated" queens them the F2 has about a 50:50 chance of being aggressive. I try not to breed too many F2's... I currently have one that has slipped through and attempts to re-queen them will ongoing today.

What breeder do you use?




I think most peoples choice will be mainly influenced by availability, breed to most bar the breeders is fairly irrelevant

 

[birdsandbees]

Well my experience is relatively limited having only several seasons under my belt but I have a fair number of hives, I have tried Buckfast (as most newbies do) found them very variable and in fact still have one white queen and a couple of nice daughters, others had been either swarmy or turned defensive, same with the Carniolans I have tried, most I have currently are local Mutts which are understandably varied but they have lead me back toward my initial want, when I first got into the Hobby I wanted AMm but obviously they aren't that easy to get hold of when you start out, I had also heard the 'stories' about them so was put off.
my desire now is to go back to this and fingers crossed do my bit to improve their P.R, the issue of keeping them pure and selection being addressed by I.I

I like most, respect peoples decisions on what bees they keep but lets face it Buckfast need no help with PR where as our Natives do, in theory with selection they 'could be' as gentle and productive as any other race but time will tell and with many having Honey and gentle bees as their number one priority I can see why they stick to an already tried and tested recipe.

I haven't cast a vote simply because I haven't yet found my preference, t would be unfair to vote AMm as I haven't as yet got any.

 

[Beefriendly]

What breeder do you use?

A good place to start looking for specialist Buckfast breeders is this listing of most of the registered Buckfast Breeders in Europe.
http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/archiv.html
They usually have e-mail addresses and web sites.

 

[Finman]

.
Local Buckfast?

I doubt that all do well everywhere. They have been bred in local climate..

.

 

[roche]

I'm very interested in the 10% other ....what other bee type are they using?
There are 3 so far...perhaps they could explain?

Local Mongrels - reasonably well suited to local conditions, selected for temperament and productivity, quick and easy to re-queen if need-be. Works for us...

 

[Beefriendly]

- reasonably well suited to local conditions,.

No problem if it works for you that's all it has to do.
Now please don't take this personally as I'd like others to expand/expound on it but the frequently written and quoted "Well suited to local conditions". What does it mean?

What are the local conditions that they are suited for and how?
Would they be unsuited if moved say 50 miles?
How come my foreign queens ...which obviously can't be suited for "my" local conditions ....wipe the floor in every way with the supposed well suited local bees in my area.
I think it's just become a mantra without meaning.
Move a bee hive from Cornwall to the North of Scotland or vice versa and it will survive....because the beekeeper is looking after them.
There is no suited to local conditions.
Discuss....

 

[roche]

Local is pretty broad in my book - I think the prime local condition is probably temperature range and mean followed closely by length of season. So over a longer term, you might find a difference from south of England to north of England, and even local micro-climates. That having been said, the chances of evolving for that climate, given other local bee-keepers with different policies, is pretty slim.

Imports may come from "similar" environments. I guess from Denmark or parts of the South Island of NZ to you could be similar.

I'm not attached to a particular dogma - We have had queens from other parts of the country; I don't think they have done as well as locals. It's also noticeable that the local temperament seems to have improved over the last ten years.

 

[Beefriendly]

Local is pretty broad in my book - I think the prime local condition is probably temperature range and mean followed closely by length of season.

The one example of local adaption I'm thinking of was described by Ruttner and he called them heather bees. Very slow spring build up as very little forage available on the Yorkshire moors until July/August which when their population numbers peaked. Their life cycle was adapted to their main nectar source. It may be showing in the remnants of the local bees in my area....generally pretty crap, queens won't lay more the 5/6 frames of brood max, annual swarmers and nasty to boot. The Moors start less than mile, but 600 feet upwards from where I live.

 

[B+.]

The one example of local adaption I'm thinking of was described by Ruttner and he called them heather bees. Very slow spring build up as very little forage available on the Yorkshire moors until July/August which when their population numbers peaked. Their life cycle was adapted to their main nectar source. It may be showing in the remnants of the local bees in my area....generally pretty crap, queens won't lay more the 5/6 frames of brood max, annual swarmers and nasty to boot. The Moors start less than mile, but 600 feet upwards from where I live.

Testing is the answer. Put them in situations you don't expect them to do well and see what happens.
For example, I sent daughters of 55-2-70-2016 to ITLD last summer. He put it in a nuc (known as J5) and raised daughters. A month ago, they were doing well (https://twitter.com/Bplus_Amc). That's no suprise. Their grandmother was raised in The Netherlands and her mother was raised in Bedfordshire...quite different from Perthshire, you might say? Well, no doubt they're in full hives by now and will be tested on the heather moors in August.
If you want to know the answer, you have to be prepared to stick your neck out

 

[Beefriendly]

Testing is the answer. Put them in situations you don't expect them to do well and see what happens.
[/QUOTE

Not really an example of "local adaption", quite the opposite. Holland/ Beds/Scotland in a few years. Extreme migratory beekeeping perhaps
Rubbing the inadequacies of the well adapted locals noses in the smelly stuff.

 

[B+.]

Testing is the answer. Put them in situations you don't expect them to do well and see what happens.

Not really an example of "local adaption", quite the opposite. Holland/ Beds/Scotland in a few years. Extreme migratory beekeeping perhaps

Their mother (55-2-70-2016) was proven in Bedfordshire. My point was that I agree with your earlier post. Local adaption is not meant to be taken so literally. The bees will perform well in similar conditions.

If you take the extremes (e.g. Southern states to Northern states of America) I'd expect to see a difference. The climate is so different. However, The Netherlands, Germany, UK are not too dissimilar. I have proven over >10 years that they do very well here.

 

[Beefriendly]

My point was that I agree I have proven over >10 years that they do very well here.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Millet]

I have good well bad experience with North Yorkshires finest mongrels, like BF stated 6/7 frames of brood on a good year, and a whopping 15lb of honey i got from them over a 2yr period, just aswell it is not my main income.

But the worst thing of all them mongrels where the angriest bees i have ever been near, during inspections i was regularly shaking my balled up gloves to save squashing them, the dog kept getting stung 50yrd's away and the horses and goats got there fare share of stings also and i could not take my suit of for around 10 min's after i had finished.

I now have Buckfast from 3 different sources and they are a absolute pleasure to work with, i get the odd stroppy inspection like now when the OSR is in full flow but apart from that they are like babies and all on double brood with 3 and 2 supers, that is something i can live with on this cold North East Coast.

 

[Finman]

No problem if it works for you that's all it has to do.
Now please don't take this personally as I'd like others to expand/expound on it but the frequently written and quoted "Well suited to local conditions". What does it mean?

What are the local conditions that they are suited for and how?
Would they be unsuited if moved say 50 miles?
How come my foreign queens ...which obviously can't be suited for "my" local conditions ....wipe the floor in every way with the supposed well suited local bees in my area.
I think it's just become a mantra without meaning.
Move a bee hive from Cornwall to the North of Scotland or vice versa and it will survive....because the beekeeper is looking after them.
There is no suited to local conditions.
Discuss....

It was well said. Beefriend, use ypur brains.
.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

I voted for 'other' as in the bees I raise.

How many years does it take for locally bred bees to be considered as something other than a mongrel?

(B+: you're not allowed to answer as I know the answer you'll give ! )

 

[B+.]

I voted for 'other' as in the bees I raise.

How many years does it take for locally bred bees to be considered as something other than a mongrel?

(B+: you're not allowed to answer as I know the answer you'll give ! )

I voted carnica because...um...I breed carnica.

I'm actually more interested in how views change over time than just how they are at a point in time.

I think a lot of peoples perceptions are shaped by the commercial version of whatever race there is....but...these are only the multipliers, not the breeders and the "product" can be very different.

 

[Fusion_power]

I won't vote because it won't reflect your local conditions, but I will post an opinion.

If I were given a choice of any bee at all that I could keep and produce honey, I would go with pure Buckfast. My choice to keep bees treatment free means that pure Buckfast die out within 2 years. I'm finding that the crosses to mite tolerant drones work pretty well. My best queen this year was raised from a Buckfast breeder in 2017 and mated with drones from my mite tolerant line. So far, the colony shows mite resistance as good as the pure resistant bees but with 200lb surplus honey so far this year.

 

[B+.]

If I were given a choice of any bee at all that I could keep and produce honey, I would go with pure Buckfast.

I included Buckfast only because it is a popular bee. As others have pointed out, it isn't a race at all. Nevertheless, the results are interesting and reflect a starting point. My interest was in how opinions changed year after year so I will repost it next year. I am particularly interested in whether the popular belief that "local" mongrels gains any traction. From everything I have seen, the "local" mongrel does not perform better in any category in my area.