14x12 or brood +half

[nubee 61]

for next season i think i would like to increase my brood space as this year i have been constantly scraping off comb from the top of frames that also buries about half the QX which makes the bees quite angry when i remove the QX for inspections at the mo i have standard national brood box
does any one think the extra space would help?
if so what do you think 14x12 or brood and half

 

[oliver90owner]

Jumbos are harder to handle, generally all ways round, but have the advantage of a single box of 11/12 frames.

Brood and a half sucks IMO. OK for some, but not for me. There are twice as many frames to inspect and every complete inspection means splitting the brood nest horizontally.

I still find her laying in a shallow above a jumbo at times, but it is often only for a few weeks in the Spring/early summer. I prefer to allow her to do that than swarm. I suppose I could remove all frames with stores from the brood, but that may not stop them swarming for space by giving them more 'nest space'. The aggravation of what to do with those outer frames would be an extra hassle, too.

Not sure what makes you think they will not do the same (regarding the Q/E) with a larger format, but that has other possible alternatives (to avoid that problem).

Regards, RAB

 

[thedeaddiplomat]

We moved from single brood to brood and a half this year. It has been OK - but a lot of work. And when the bees are tetchy there is always a dangerous temptation to forego some of the checking of the lower brood.

All being well (and if the current Lady DD is looking the other way when I put in my order), I am inclined to shift to 14x12 next year.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

I hate the expression that something sucks, but I will agree that brood and a half is not sensible. The worst of everything. Double brood wold be better - as I do when required. I have a couple of 14 x 12's also.

If bees want to stick down the queen excluder they will - irrespective of the space below it. (If you use plastic or perforated steel - considering a wire excluder instead).

14 x 12 is not a panacea. The frames are deep and heavy so a standard hive tool is not long enough. They need care in manipulation. The (too) long hoffman bits get stuck together. Because they are so long you ned to be careful lifting them out as there is more of a chance of crushing bees.

If your colony was able to fit inside a 8.5" brood why change? How many frames of brood did you have in the box?

(I've often thought that a 10" deep brood chamber would work - but then you might as well use a commerical at 16 x 10).

 

[Winker]

Im with Rab on this one Brood and a half sucks. More work for you and more upset for the bees.

 

[Davelin]

14 x 12 works for me, the frames are quite heavy when full, but have had no difficulty removing them. I have still had comb built on top of frames and through QE mind you, so I don't think it will automatically cure your original problem.

 

[oliver90owner]

14 x 12 is not a panacea. The frames are deep and heavy so a standard hive tool is not long enough. They need care in manipulation. The (too) long hoffman bits get stuck together. Because they are so long you ned to be careful lifting them out as there is more of a chance of crushing bees.

While I agree with the first sentence, I would add there is no single 'ideal' solution and everything is a compromise.

I have purchased and used standard hive tools and found them not wanting.

The (longer) hoffman bits do not really come into play for more than prising the frames apart and the problem of rolling (crushing) bees is of little significance, as far as I am concerned. The frames are only about 90mm longer. A dummy board removed first and then after the first frame is removed from the box there is more than ample space to manouvre each frame without crushing bees.

I would double brood rather than 'brood and a half' all season (same sized brood frames certainl have an advantage over differnt sized ones), but the advantage is outweighed by the mass of a full box, needing to be moved at most inspections - I am getting too old to be doing that, I am afraid. That was one reason for the brood and a half decision for many beeks in the past, I would guess.

RAB

 

[drex]

Standard National = bottom bee space. I run these too. My teacher suggested a wooden rim ( 1 beespace thick) on the underside of my plastic THo**** excluder. Most of the time it stops them glueing it to top bars. Problem solved.

 

[drstitson]

Standard National = bottom bee space. I run these too. My teacher suggested a wooden rim ( 1 beespace thick) on the underside of my plastic THo**** excluder. Most of the time it stops them glueing it to top bars. Problem solved.

a cross batten (whilst providing a little surface to stick to frames) will prevent sagging.

 

[victor meldrew]

I use 14x12s and can easily lift one full of stores
I use a dummy board of course , where I have to be careful is closing up frames in a hive bursting with bees problem being the longer hoffman shoulders can crush more bees , seeing down to the bottom is difficult .
I place each frame up tight as I return it and when all inspected I push the whole lot back in one go, needing only to watch the end frame to hive wall pinching area . I then simply refit dummy board (minimum fuss)

VM

 

[drstitson]

"14 x 12 is not a panacea. The frames are deep and heavy so a standard hive tool is not long enough. They need care in manipulation. The (too) long hoffman bits get stuck together. Because they are so long you ned to be careful lifting them out as there is more of a chance of crushing bees."

you should try dadants/jumbo Langs - we're talking 17.6"x12" with short lugs AND on the continent usually used in brood boxes with castellations. i would imagine this would be your ultimate nightmare.

 

[drex]

Next year am thinking of trying some Commercial BB's, with my National supers, despite not liking short lugs at the apiary on my training course, last year. However I now have more experience of handling frames, so I expect it will be OK

 

[drstitson]

pincer type frame grabbers help.

 

[tonybloke]

Next year am thinking of trying some Commercial BB's, with my National supers, despite not liking short lugs at the apiary on my training course, last year. However I now have more experience of handling frames, so I expect it will be OK

definitely the way forward !! ( It's what i use)

 

[Pete D]

Well half way through my first year and I have decided that the 14x12 route is the way for me to go next year.
My first bees were a colony in a 2nd hand hive on brood and a half (end of March), quickly followed by another on brood only that I changed to brood and half following advice. As a beginner I found these very difficult initially and during the cool May weather in this part of the world my in experience and impatient bees made inspections hard work. One hive swarmed which I caught and housed, the other I did an AS on and at that stage put them both back to just a brood. They have all settled down and no signs of swarming since.
I just purchased 2 14x12 Nuc boxes for AS next season and will in the sales hope to get 4 brood boxes and some frames to fill all these. 2 of these I want to put above the std broods early season and get them drawn and HM moved up.
Best laid plans........

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

Another vote for 14x12 here. Overwintered one WBC colony on brood and a half (they needed more stores) but moved them to 14x12 asap. One box to manoever, the idea of going backwards and forwards with 20-24 frames to find the queen would fill me with dread.

Plus, I have a few standard brood frames with thymolated stores in I want to feed back, no problem with the 14x12 - its compatibility with standard national helped swing it in favour of the alternative Commercial.

 

[drstitson]

"the idea of going backwards and forwards with 20-24 frames to find the queen would fill me with dread"

especially with those bees of yours!!!!

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

"the idea of going backwards and forwards with 20-24 frames to find the queen would fill me with dread"

especially with those bees of yours!!!!

Damn right doc - I normally wave a white flag and retreat after 5 or 6 frames - let the b*ggers swarm if they want to, I wont miss them!*



* This is of course morally wrong, so I would like to point out that the above statement was made purely in jest

 

[drstitson]

mons ab - that's where you have gone wrong with one box approach - 2 boxes mean you just split between the boxes, lift a bit, peek in and check for QCs and close if all clear. job done and less chance of getting stang off of 'em.

 

[Moggs]

14 x 12 - unreservedly for me. Yes, there is a tendency for comb to sag, if it's warm but that can easily be overcome by careful manipulation (i.e. don't allow the frame to hover in the horizontal plane). To that end, a beekeeper of great standing advised me to use the technique of "turning the steering wheel before you go around the corner" - in other words, remove frame, rotate frame through 90 degrees so that the bottom rail becomes the left (or right!) edge, swivel frame on its top bar axis (the bit in your fingers!) through 180 degrees and then rotate 'upwards' to view the second side. The comb is always in the vertical plane. Easier demonstrated than described!

I have seen manipulations of B+1/2 and Bx2 and to my mind it's time consuming and back breaking work.