14 x 12 hives....is it such a problem

[Morgan968]

Hi everyone

I can imagine that this question will open a can of worms with pros and cons on either side, but I've purchased bees (over wintered buckfast) and hives including frames and foundation for 14x12 nationals. My thinking was this would be better for over-wintering, bigger brood and larger hive activity, less feeding up for winter, better for the bees and due to them going in my home apriay I'm not concerned about the weight too much and having to move them about a lot, also I can use the nucs the bees come in for any swarming etc which might happen with all this said and done in reality will going this big for my brood box actually be beneficial....any advice would be much appreciated

 

[testka]

Hi everyone



I can imagine that this question will open a can of worms with pros and cons on either side, but I've purchased bees (over wintered buckfast) and hives including frames and foundation for 14x12 nationals. My thinking was this would be better for over-wintering, bigger brood and larger hive activity, less feeding up for winter, better for the bees and due to them going in my home apriay I'm not concerned about the weight too much and having to move them about a lot, also I can use the nucs the bees come in for any swarming etc which might happen with all this said and done in reality will going this big for my brood box actually be beneficial....any advice would be much appreciated

I've had 14x12 and standard nationals for years. Personally prefer the flexibility of the standard national but tend to run down on double brood. Very easy to make splits, nice size for queens here in sunny London and easy for swarm control.

However that said we have one site with only 14x12 hives and this is the site the Mrs tends to check herself. A standard national with loads of stores is heavy and moving boxes to check a double brood can be difficult at times. With a 14x12 you only need a single brood box so easier if you have prolific bees, work alone and find moving full brood boxes taxing... I also find they overwinter well with the amount of stores brought in. Drawing comb fully can be a bit haphazard unless there is a good flow on or you feed and have a good size colony. At this site swarm control is always via the nucleus method to save moving around kit.

So... Positives and negatives. Suggest it's easier to go with what others locally use so they can assist if you get stuck..

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[pargyle]

What box is best is one of the perpetual arguments in beekeeping .. the honest answer is that you need to try things out and see what suits you best. An association apiary will usually give you the chance to try different sizes/types of hive ... and if not then members will have different ones and most beekeepers are happy to have visitors in their apiary and assisting if you ask.

The only really good advice is pick a hive and size .. be it timber or poly, national or langstroth and then STICK WITH IT. There's nothing more annoying than mismatched hive parts.

Me ? I have Paynes Poly 14 x 12's .. I like them and my bees do well in them but there are some downsides which I accept.

I've played with other beekeepers kit in various flavours and I still come back to my apiary thinking I prefer what I have ... all a matter of personal preference. And .. Yes, all the attributes and benefits you mention are true ...

 

[MuswellMetro]

i agree with Pargyle, standardize at least each apairy on the same type, i run most sites of 14x12 but one site is on Commercial 16x10 and still when i need a box it is sods law i have the other type in the car

However try them and see what you think, it is easy to convert a national box to 14x12 with a 90mm eke

 

[thedozzer]

We have only been bee havers for 1 1/2 years, so we are not Bee keepers yet
But have been using 14 x 12 masie poly from day one, on recommendation from a friend of mine that has been keeping them for years.
Yes they are not as flexible as double standard national for hive manipulation, and my good lady finds the frames are quite heavy if full and she has to lean over to lift them.
But as more experienced BK's have said, they are a good size for reasonably prolific bees and have plenty of room for stores for winter.
We intend to stick with them for the future unless we find something that suits our needs better.

 

[Newbeeneil]

it is easy to convert a national box to 14x12 with a 90mm eke

I also have a special light weight box which takes 3 frames and deep enough to take 14x12s it means if I have to do a split I can do both standard or the larger frames.

 

[Angry_Mob]

I like them and they work well for where I live and much preferable to a single national, I can understand that some can find them unwieldy. That said I've ordered 5 double brood hives which I'm going to experiment with this year.

Reading here I might just keep the nationals along with my nucs at my home apiary and move the 14x12 further afield.

 

[MuswellMetro]

I like them and they work well for where I live and much preferable to a single national, I can understand that some can find them unwieldy. That said I've ordered 5 double brood hives which I'm going to experiment with this year.

Reading here I might just keep the nationals along with my nucs at my home apiary and move the 14x12 further afield.

well I am 6ft 2 and for large 70,000 cell box i find 14x12 unwieldy compared to commercial 16x10 but use 14x12 as i like even less the small 16x10 lug and small hand holds on commercials

likewise deep langstroth and commecial supers with small handholds are a nightmare lifting off

 

[Millet]

well I am 6ft 2 and for large 70,000 cell box i find 14x12 unwieldy compared to commercial 16x10 but use 14x12 as i like even less the small 16x10 lug and small hand holds on commercials

likewise deep langstroth and commecial supers with small handholds are a nightmare lifting off

I don't understand those measurements ..are they frame or box sizes in inches..

 

[MuswellMetro]

I don't understand those measurements ..are they frame or box sizes in inches..

frame sizes,Deep National 14"x8" Extra deep National 14" x12" and Short lug Commercial 16" x 10"...also notionaly the same 18.25" ( 46cm) square formate though commercial are 18.5" (47cm)

so a National is i think 225mm deep and a 14x12 315mm deep

 

[Millet]

frame sizes,Deep National 14"x8" Extra deep National 14" x12" and Short lug Commercial 16" x 10"...also notionaly the same 18.25" ( 46cm) square formate though commercial are 18.5" (47cm)

so a National is i think 225mm deep and a 14x12 315mm deep

 

[ShinySideUp]

I'm entering my third year as a beekeeper. Before I started I did a quite extensive couse and one of the sessions was spent handling different sizes of frames and while the smaller frames are more easily handleable I don't have a problem with either the size or the weight of full 14 x 12's. I have hardly had to feed in the winter and have yet to lose a colony (although one of them looks a little light on bees at the moment). I can't see me ever using anything else but everyone has to make their own decision.

 

[Angry_Mob]

A national brood frame is 14 x 8.5"

 

[Helen]

And to add to the mix - I use 14x12 brood frames in long deep hives. I don't move the hives around, so the benefits of a long hive where I can add brood frames as required without going vertical, can use national supers and equipment, and have the brood box top at waist height so no bending and therefore knackered back.



I did get a maisie 14x12 poly national last year to try, but still prefer the long deep hives.

 

[Murox]

And to add to the mix - I use 14x12 brood frames in long deep hives. I don't move the hives around, so the benefits of a long hive where I can add brood frames as required without going vertical, can use national supers and equipment, and have the brood box top at waist height so no bending and therefore knackered back.

I did get a maisie 14x12 poly national last year to try, but still prefer the long deep hives.

Being nosy - how many 14x12 frames make up your long hive ? And do you see any benefits to the bees using deeper frames ?

 

[SDM]

, it is easy to convert a national box to 14x12 with a 90mm eke

Or to a commercial with a Hamilton converter.

 

[Stiffy]

In general, national hives and parts are cheaper, especially in the sales. We run a mix and I find that a double national, when colony is at full strength, works best for me and can easily be split to populate nucs etc.
S

 

[For want of a better word]

Found this :-
BS1300 was revised in 1960. It was subsequently allowed to expire but the design laid out in BS1300:1960 is still the most popular hive design in use in the UK.

Brood box

The British National brood box is 18 1/8"x18 1/8"x8 7/8" made from 3/4" timber.

The internal dimensions are 16 5/8"x14 5/8" due to recessed side panels. This is then filled with 12 frames, or 11 and a dummy frame, each having a comb area of 14"x8 1/2".
Shallow box (Super)

The British National shallow box is 18 1/8"x18 1/8"x5 7/8" made from 3/4" timber.

The internal dimensions are 16 5/8"x14 5/8" due to recessed side panels. This is then generally filled with 9 or 10 frames each having a comb area of 14"x5 1/2".

A shallow box may be used as an extension to the brood chamber (known as brood and a half). In this case the shallow box would be filled with 11 frames and a dummy frame or 12 frames.

Had this very argument with the master beekeeper who uses frames that are not mentioned in British Standard BS1300, despite the fact he calls them BS National 14 x 12 !

Some describe 14 x 12 frames a cumbersome abomination designed to accelerate lower back problems!

 

[Helen]

Being nosy - how many 14x12 frames make up your long hive ? And do you see any benefits to the bees using deeper frames ?

21 or 22 brood frames. The long hive is designed so I can fit 2 national supers on top side-by-side. I guess I could have used standard brood frames rather than 14x12; the bees would occupy more horizontal space in the hive.

 

[Ian123]

Morgan going back to your post if you have proper buckfast or f1 you will struggle to keep them in 14x12 that’s effectively brood and a half mine will often push into 3 broods during the main flow filling a large percentage of the bottom box with pollen alone. Imo I find dbl brood so much more flexible and in terms of wintering most of mine do so in a single brood.