yesterday's swarm out of hive and clustered on front

[shrekfeet]

Hi folks, collected a swarm yesterday, dumped them on a sheet sloping up to the hive entrance and left them for a while, they didn't go in alone. So I put an empty super on top and dropped them into this, lid on, sorted. Stayed over night. This morning I wanted to take the empty super off as the last time I did this they built comb from the roof and it was a biot of a nightmare.
So, removed lid, they had started to build on the inside of it, brushed and dumped them into the main hive with the help of bee brish and some smoke. Seemed placid enough. Added QE, a super woth for drawn out frames and put lid back on. Half an hour later they were all out of the hive flying around, they setted in a tree briefly and then relocated to the front of the vive. It is on a stand, 18inches of the ground so they are mainly hanging from the base/leg. Some are going in and out but the majority seem to stay put. I can see bees in the cluster doing their waggle dance.
Questions is, what do I do?

 

[shrekfeet]

reading other threads on here, could this have been a mating flight? Seems unlikely but I only have straws so i'm grasping at them

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Maybe you should be a bit gentler than 'dumping' them here and there

If bees are in a cluster doing a waggle dance then it looks as if they're mstill 'debating' on another location.
A swarm doesn't need a super. you would have been better with just a brood box, inspection tray in on your OMF and maybe (If you were sure you 'dumped' the queen in there last night) the QE under the BB.
As for using the super to get the bees into the hive last night, good thinking, but you would have been better off putting them all in an empty (no frames) brood box, putting the BB with frames on top then going in today and taking the bottom one out for as you found - the bees will make their way right to the top of the chamber.
I'm of the opinion they are still in swarm cluster mode and just using your hive as a handy place to hang around until they decide on a new home.
Take the super away, try and persuade a few more in there and see what happens.

 

[beeno]

Hi Shrekfeet,
I would just leave them alone. If you have got the queen in there they have to go back. If not it is all futile anyway! Good luck.

 

[ratcatcher]

if you can gather them up, try the walking in bit again, but get down on all fours and watch for the queen, my first swarm did this four times, each time I scooped them back in, on the forth occasion, my mentor found the queen, only for her to fly off, but within minutes she came back and walked in by herself, and stayed put, without needing to trap her inside, I still have these bees, very docile

 

[ratcatcher]

double post d'oh

 

[Heather]

Got a frame of brood from another hive- donate- they usually stay then.

 

[Roola]

Got a frame of brood from another hive- donate- they usually stay then.

Agreed,

I had the same problem a few days back, placed them in box at new site in the evening, crack of dawn the next day they were clustered under the hive next door.

I got a frame of eggs/brood from another colony, placed it in and then gently placed cluster on top in the box, by the time I came back later in the day they were very at home and had already drawn out a frame and a half. I guess appealing to their motherly instincts works.

 

[shrekfeet]

OK, thanks for advice. I 'dumped' as gently as I could, believe me.

I don't have another colony to take a frame of brood from. I'll see if I can get hold of anyone.

If not then I'm going to put a QE then an empty super and then the brood box. Place gently, the bees from the hive stand into the empty super and block the queen in over noght. Remove the QE tomorrow and hope for the best.

Nothing ventured...

 

[BILL.HEARD]

Maybe you should be a bit gentler than 'dumping' them here and there

If bees are in a cluster doing a waggle dance then it looks as if they're mstill 'debating' on another location.
A swarm doesn't need a super. you would have been better with just a brood box, inspection tray in on your OMF and maybe (If you were sure you 'dumped' the queen in there last night) the QE under the BB.
As for using the super to get the bees into the hive last night, good thinking, but you would have been better off putting them all in an empty (no frames) brood box, putting the BB with frames on top then going in today and taking the bottom one out for as you found - the bees will make their way right to the top of the chamber.
I'm of the opinion they are still in swarm cluster mode and just using your hive as a handy place to hang around until they decide on a new home.
Take the super away, try and persuade a few more in there and see what happens.

You also seem to get this problem with castes more than prime swarms.

 

[itma]

QX under the brood box but ONLY for a couple of days until they have drawn some wax and committed themselves.
If it is a floppy plastic or metal sheet QX, you need to put in an entrance reducer block, to prevent the floppy QX sagging into the entrance and so letting Q escape.

 

[shrekfeet]

OK, so tried QE at bottome, dumped bees into empty super, added brood box then lid. Walked away and 10 minutes later all bees left the hive and finally bearded across the front, they spent the night there and are still there this morning! Now what? Perhaps the Q is not in the hive

 

[user 6228]

put them in another hive in another location e.g. 5m+ away.
CHeck these items first

Box is new to this colony...
box is ~40L and EMPTY (except for the single old frame)
ENTRANCE <20 Sq Cms!! This is a real deal breaker
Bottom of box is blacked out ( light tight)
Entrance is facing south.
Some old comb in box (not theirs)
Box is elevated (e.g. well off the ground)

This is from the Research by Prof Tom Seeley. The box needs to be relatively empty so that the bees can measure the volume easily...
The blacking out is so that there is no potential confusion over entrance size. Remember nest selection is a voting process you need to get an overwhelming number of scout votes for your box rather than any thing else.

 

[itma]

OK, so tried QE at bottome, dumped bees into empty super, added brood box then lid. Walked away and 10 minutes later all bees left the hive and finally bearded across the front, they spent the night there and are still there this morning! Now what? Perhaps the Q is not in the hive

Distinct possibility that you may have lost her.
Scrounging a test frame with eggs/open brood would seem the best route.

 

[shrekfeet]

Just to update you. I set up another hive today in the hope of enticing the bees in. It smelt good of bees/wax etc as had a lot of drawn out frames. They investigated it but have not moved in. Still bearded all over the front of the first hive which I cracked the roof of in case the queen was in but the workers didn’t want to join her for some reason. Do you have any ideas? Perhaps they have lost their queen and have no idea what to do now. They have been on the move since Sunday at least. Am I wasting my time?

 

[shrekfeet]

any advice welcome

Have none of u experienced keeps got any further ideas?

 

[user 6228]

The commitee of scouts is divided, Something about that hive is not optimal. How big is the entrance? is the entrance block in?

 

[Roola]

Best way to get them to stay and see if they are queenright is to scrounge a frame of BIAS from another beekeeper, (are you a member of a BKA?) I'm sure someone would kindly give you a frame. I had the same issue with a cast swarm that refused to stay in their box until I put in a frame of BIAS. They soon settled in and were collecting pollen by the end of the day, It also appears they lost their queen as are now using the larvae to raise EQC... So a frame of BIAS will help you in two ways, encourage them to stay and see if you are queenright or if there is a virgin in there somewhere.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The commitee of scouts is divided, Something about that hive is not optimal. How big is the entrance? is the entrance block in?

maybe brood and a half is a bit too big for them for a start - or maybe there's a slightly better option nearby.

 

[shrekfeet]

thanks, how do I get the bearded bees off the front of the hive and into another?