Year one Queens

[Boston Bees]

Does the foundation need to be cut down to suit

No, just this:

 

[enrico]

No, Dani is saying that, in the autumn when feeding she will put a frame of foundation in the middle of the brood as it gets drawn perfectly in double quick time with only worker cells.
Murray McGregor does it frequently.
Nothing to do with 'encouraging the queen to stay'

I think I'm going mad! The author says will a one year queen swarm. Someone mentions that opening the brood will help and Dani says that means putting a frame of foundation between two brood frames. That's how I came to the conclusion I did!
Just trying to sort out how it all ties together!!

 

[Erichalfbee]

I would call a queen from last season 1 year old since it only had one winter

I remember having a thread in this some time ago.
A queen born on July Ist 2021 is a year old on July 1st 2022
2021 was her first season 2022 is her second.
It doesn’t really matter how you label her as long as you know when she emerged and even then it matters even less unless you are selling her.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I think I'm going mad! The author says will a one year queen swarm. Someone mentions that opening the brood will help and Dani says that means putting a frame of foundation between two brood frames. That's how I came to the conclusion I did!
Just trying to sort out how it all ties together!!

I never said it would help. I was explaining how beekeepers open the brood

 

[Erichalfbee]

I think I'm going mad! The author says will a one year queen swarm. Someone mentions that opening the brood will help and Dani says that means putting a frame of foundation between two brood frames. That's how I came to the conclusion I did!
Just trying to sort out how it all ties together!!

@enrico
Look at antipodes link
Here’s the relevant section


Opening the broodnest
This, of course is what we want to do. What we need to do is interrupt the chain of events. The easiest way is to keep the brood nest open. If you keep the brood nest from backfilling and if you occupy all those unemployed nurse bees then you can change their mind. If you catch it before they start queen cells, you can put some empty frames in the brood nest. Yes, empty. No foundation. Nothing. Just an empty frame. Just one here and there with two frames of brood between. In other words, you can do something like: BBEBBEBBEB where B is brood comb and E is an empty frame. How many you insert depends on how strong the cluster is. They have to fill all those gaps with bees. The gaps fill with the unemployed nurse bees who begin festooning and building comb. The queen will find the new comb and about the time they get about ¼" deep, the queen will lay in them. You have now "opened up the brood nest". In one step you have occupied the bees that were preparing to swarm with wax production followed by nursing, you've expanded the brood nest, and you've given the queen a place to lay. If you don't have room to put the empty combs in, then add another brood box and move some brood combs up to that box to make the room to add some to the brood nest. In other words, then the top box would probably be something like EEEBBBEEEE and the bottom one BBEBBEBBEB. The other upside is I get good natural sized brood comb.

 

[pargyle]

Will year one queens be unlikely to swarm.
Both belong to good strong colonies.
I have a new flat pack hive kit just in case.
The original colony was a few years old when I got it with the second colony being formed via a controlled swarm from the first.
Both colonies later became very aggressive forcing me to replace them. Hence two first year queens.

I think the answer to your question is assume that your bees will swarm .... if they don't you will be both relieved and pleasantly surprised ... When/if they make queen cells and you find them you will be both relieved and pleasantly surprised.

Assume the worst or your bees will definitely catch you out !

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

@enrico
Look at antipodes link
Here’s the relevant section


Opening the broodnest
This, of course is what we want to do. What we need to do is interrupt the chain of events. The easiest way is to keep the brood nest open. If you keep the brood nest from backfilling and if you occupy all those unemployed nurse bees then you can change their mind. If you catch it before they start queen cells, you can put some empty frames in the brood nest. Yes, empty. No foundation. Nothing. Just an empty frame. Just one here and there with two frames of brood between. In other words, you can do something like: BBEBBEBBEB where B is brood comb and E is an empty frame. How many you insert depends on how strong the cluster is. They have to fill all those gaps with bees. The gaps fill with the unemployed nurse bees who begin festooning and building comb. The queen will find the new comb and about the time they get about ¼" deep, the queen will lay in them. You have now "opened up the brood nest". In one step you have occupied the bees that were preparing to swarm with wax production followed by nursing, you've expanded the brood nest, and you've given the queen a place to lay. If you don't have room to put the empty combs in, then add another brood box and move some brood combs up to that box to make the room to add some to the brood nest. In other words, then the top box would probably be something like EEEBBBEEEE and the bottom one BBEBBEBBEB. The other upside is I get good natural sized brood comb.

sound like a load of B's to me (maybe the author had too many E's)

 

[enrico]

Thanks Dani, I am guilty of not reading the link which would clearly have helped!
I am a great believer in the fact that bees WILL swarm because that is their reproduction, when they do it is another matter but thanks for explaining

 

[Erichalfbee]

Thanks Dani, I am guilty of not reading the link which would clearly have helped!
I am a great believer in the fact that bees WILL swarm because that is their reproduction, when they do it is another matter but thanks for explaining

No worries. I’m not a fan of much that Mr Bush does. My swarm control is by reactive split. I presume that any hive will make swarm preps

 

[Antipodes]

No worries. I’m not a fan of much that Mr Bush does. My swarm control is by reactive split. I presume that any hive will make swarm preps

I find that opening the brood nest works quite well, but it's easier if you have a bunch of hives in an apiary where you can even things out and it's handy that my brood frames are small and interchangeable throughout the whole hive and all other hives. I don't use foundationless much any more as I get concerned about drone cells, and I also believe that drawn comb gives the queen somewhere almost immediate to lay.
I am most trusting of a new spring queen, less trusting of an autumn one and less trusting again of one from the previous spring or summer.
I'm also more trusting of a bought queen from a breeder than one that I have raised or that has been raised in one of my apiaries.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I find that opening the brood nest works quite well, but it's easier if you have a bunch of hives in an apiary where you can even things out and it's handy that my brood frames are small and interchangeable throughout the whole hive and all other hives. I don't use foundationless much any more as I get concerned about drone cells, and I also believe that drawn comb gives the queen somewhere almost immediate to lay.
I am most trusting of a new spring queen, less trusting of an autumn one and less trusting again of one from the previous spring or summer.

I think you have more reliable good weather too.

 

[pargyle]

No worries. I’m not a fan of much that Mr Bush does. My swarm control is by reactive split. I presume that any hive will make swarm preps

It's a lot more reliable than giving them more space and hoping for the best !

 

[Antipodes]

I think you have more reliable good weather too.

Yes, that's true, Tasmania is a little warmer than the UK, some say we have the best climate in the world (which I wouldn't argue with), and I see even down in London at the moment you are not getting above 13. Last September (your March), was cool here with our mean max 14 degrees and mean min 4. I caught a whopping swarm (not from one of my colonies), on the 22nd, which was the only day in the month over 20 degrees. There was then a decent frost on the 26th.

 

[Antipodes]

It's a lot more reliable than giving them more space and hoping for the best !

What do you mean by "hoping for the best"?

 

[pargyle]

What do you mean by "hoping for the best"?

It's an unreliable method of swarm control .... if that's all you are doing (And I would remind you that this is the beginners section) then it's not enough to stop them swarming and they could just as easily build queen cells and swarm. We should be careful not to attempt to introduce beginnners to esoteric methods of beekeeping withour making it clear that there are risks attached. It's fine if you have several colonies and can afford to lose a swarm or two but a lot of new beekeepers could only have one or two hives and inspecting for queen cells during the season and being prepared to create and artificial swarm is a much more reliable method procedure.

 

[Antipodes]

It's an unreliable method of swarm control .... if that's all you are doing (And I would remind you that this is the beginners section) then it's not enough to stop them swarming and they could just as easily build queen cells and swarm. We should be careful not to attempt to introduce beginnners to esoteric methods of beekeeping withour making it clear that there are risks attached. It's fine if you have several colonies and can afford to lose a swarm or two but a lot of new beekeepers could only have one or two hives and inspecting for queen cells during the season and being prepared to create and artificial swarm is a much more reliable method procedure.

Please re-read post 32 and the ultimate sentence therein. It is not a case of doing it once and hoping for the best as you suggest. That is very clearly not what I said.

 

[pargyle]

Please re-read post 32 and the ultimate sentence therein. It is not a case of doing it once and hoping for the best as you suggest. That is very clearly not what I said.

I missed that sentence in amongst it all. .... so best highlight to our new beekeepers the fact that, in isolation, brood nest expansion may NOT stop your bees swarming,

 

[Erichalfbee]

I missed that sentence in amongst it all. .... so best highlight to our new beekeepers the fact that, in isolation, brood nest expansion may NOT stop your bees swarming,

Can the best we can hope for be to delay the swarm? Bit of a b****r if half a huge colony goes at the start of a decent flow if you're not vigilant

 

[pargyle]

Can the best we can hope for be to delay the swarm? Bit of a b****r if half a huge colony goes at the start of a decent flow if you're not vigilant

Precisely....like I said earlier....its not something you can rely on in isolation ...the best you can hope for is that it may work and prevent a colony from swarming but the substantial risk is that it doesn't ! So ... largely a waste of time if you still have to inspect for swarm cells ?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

best highlight to our new beekeepers the fact that, in isolation, brood nest expansion may NOT stop your bees swarming,

I'd rather say will not