Winter brrrrr

[Hivemaker.]

Don't think so. They managed well enough on their own before we 'domesticated' them.

So they are not much good as a "domesticated" bee then,not much point trying to keep them as such then is it.

Strange how most of the non "domesticated" one's died out as well though.

 

[huntsman666]

You try keeping the others without treatments and see how long 'they' last.

 

[Hivemaker.]

That was the whole point,the Buckfasts did not need any treatment,they were resistant to acarine, while AMM was not.

 

[jakethedog]

isn't it the case that there are large scale (1000s of colonies) longterm (10 year+) operations in France and the US -probably elsewhere too that have been treatment free for years but without an amm in sight?

 

[itma]

...
Presumably its good to leave open whatever under-hive-roof ventilation as was sufficient during the rest of the year, so as to avoid damp, mould, etc above the insulation?

No top ventilation means just that. Most of my crownboards are simple sheets of ply. No holes, no nothing. Top ventilation is not needed when using OMFs, ever. Some top insulation (the 25mm in the roof remains all year, too).
...

Cut a piece of Kingspan/Celotex...lots of other types just Google to fit inside your roof. 50mm good, 25mm probably as good.Put a small tile. ... I use a terracotta floor tile as I have loads....in the middle,on top twixt roof and insulation so that your roof can breathe and there you go......insulated
...

It seems to this student that there is a difference of approach among insulators as to whether or not one needs to make specific provision to "let the roof breathe."

Is extra ventilation (beyond whatever gets you through the summer) above the insulation needed or not?
Or is it just a matter of ensuring that there is some (non zero) space between insulation and roof underside? Or is even that fussing unnecessarily?

 

[huntsman666]

isn't it the case that there are large scale (1000s of colonies) longterm (10 year+) operations in France and the US -probably elsewhere too that have been treatment free for years but without an amm in sight?

I don't know about France but with respect to America, I think you should rewrite that to read; 'Isn't it the case that there 'WERE' large scale 1000s of colonies.................'

 

[jakethedog]

I don't know about France but with respect to America, I think you should rewrite that to read; 'Isn't it the case that there 'WERE' large scale 1000s of colonies.................'

really? has Daniel and Binford Weavers non treated stock been wiped out?
in France, I believe that the Kefuss set up is still thriving.

 

[Finman]

It seems to this student that there is a difference of approach among insulators as to whether or not one needs to make specific provision to "let the roof breathe."

Is extra ventilation (beyond whatever gets you through the summer) above the insulation needed or not?
Or is it just a matter of ensuring that there is some (non zero) space between insulation and roof underside? Or is even that fussing unnecessarily?

after 48 beekeeping years I do not understan that thinking. insulation- ventilation and material breathing is no secret.

Nowadays there are full material polystyre roofs. Hives is ventilated via mesh floor.

I do like them, because I may make breathing inner covers from recycled material. Wooden inner covers are easy to keep clean with propane torch. It is same with bottom boards.

TO ME IT IS IMPORTANT THAT INNER COVER AND BOTTOM BOAR IS EASY TO KEEP CLEAN.

.

 

[BKF Admin]

Finman why do you ventilate your hives ?

 

[Finman]

Finman why do you ventilate your hives ?

a good question. The asker has surely thinked much the issue because he is capable to ask it so wisely.

How did it came into mind?

 

[Finman]

Finman why do you ventilate your hives ?

I answer to that if you first tell how much water is produced in respiration when bees eate 25 kg winter food?

 

[oliver90owner]

Itma,

Any space within a timber construction, with stagnant air, will likely become damp and be subject to mould and rot.

Your house roof must have ventilation to avoid rotting roof timbers, under-floor airbricks/grills must be maintained with houses with downstairs floorbooards, or the floor will rot (dry- or wet-rot). Cavity walls had air bricks installed for the same reason - there must be a small rate of air change to avoid damp conditions prevailing within the fabric of the structure.

My hive roofs are all ventilated to the exterior; it's just that my crownboards are not. That would be akin to leaving the attic door open all year round, or opening windows while using air conditioning or heating in the room! No timber product has a moisture of zero and if that moisture (and any other stray dampness) is all moved to one area, or allowed to accumulate, damp, mould and rot may well result. Ventilating the roof space is not the same as ventilating the hive into/through that space.

With an OMF there is more than adequate ventilation from below, for the cavity which is occupied by the bees, while air currents are not set up around/through the hive by convection any more than the bees require. Bees are perfectly able to maintain their space with their own air-con system when they are operational. They would have typically lived in any cavity in a tree, irrespective of whether there was more than adequate free air movement - as they can ventilate their space and control their hive temperature to quite close limits. They would not typically select a location, for setting up home, with a continual strong through-draught or one without protection from above.

Their comb structure would normally regulate any free air movement, fixed to the walls, ceiling and folding around the living area. We give them regimented parallel frames and try to avoid them making comb in other than the designated frames! We give them a hive with a designed wall thickness of 19mm (3/4 inch) or thereabouts.

Yes, we coddle them and provide extra food in the winter should they require it. In nature a lot of colonies would perish if they were only provisioned with around the 'bare minimum' of stores.

My polystyrene hives have a solid roof, with no holes in it. The bees are warm and provide their own air-con throughout the summer season. The time while they are clustered and inactive is the time when damp conditions must be avoided and ventilation must be adequate to maintain a dry living area for the bees. It only needs to be enough to clear about 15kgs of water over a 3 or 4 month period. Internal wall temperatures will be different with these different materials. 40mm of EPS has a far higher insulation value than any 19mm timber plank or a 5mm ply-board roof.

My crownboards are 9-10mm thick ply, btw. They have been treated and the inner sides often have a layer of wax, where comb has been built up to it and subsequently scraped away by me. There will not be much moisture penetration and the small amount of ventilation for the roof space has been adequate thus far (the crownboards are dry all through the winter). Condensation problems do not occur within the hive cavity because the temperatures are slightly elevated from the outside and that moisture, produced by the bees' respiration, has ample opportunity to diffuse/disperse through the OMF. Honey frames (and pollen alike), do not get moulded (as I found them when I started beekeping - when my mentor simply said 'the bees will clean the frames up shortly').

There is more than adequate ventilation through the OMF for every one of my colonies in my conditions, I can assure you of that. I recognise they will consume some extra stores with a gaping hole beneath them but that is acceptable - as long as the heat is not simply transferred quickly to the outside and lost.

Remember, all the heat we provide from our central heating system (or otherwise) in our house is lost to the surroundings over a very short time scale; every bit of fuel burned eventually goes towards heating up the outside environment - we just 'insulate and draught-proof' to keep it in our houses for a few extra hours.

Regards, RAB

 

[Onge]

Leave the open mesh floor on all year round.

Uncovered. As I do. No problems so far...5 years and counting.

 

[Finman]

.
Oliver, your hives consume a huge amount of food, if they produce 15 kg water in 3-4 months.

My hives produce on average 10 kg water in 8 months.

Your 15 kg water is in respiration equal 38 kg food.

 

[oliver90owner]

Those figures were plucked out of the air, really. Guessed from another thread and would include spring brooding.

38kg of food at 20% water content would be about 7 1/2kg water from the honey, for a start, plus 18kgs from the carbohydrate, so 25 1/2kg water in total.

So roughly, that amount of water (15kg) would be released from 22kg of stores? About the book value for overwintering? That value would be excessive for the time the colony was clustered, for sure. I agree there.

RAB

Hope your 38kg was not dry solids!

 

[itma]

No top ventilation means just that. Most of my crownboards are simple sheets of ply. No holes, no nothing. Top ventilation is not needed when using OMFs, ever. Some top insulation (the 25mm in the roof remains all year, too).
...

Itma,

Any space within a timber construction, with stagnant air, will likely become damp and be subject to mould and rot. ...

My hive roofs are all ventilated to the exterior; it's just that my crownboards are not. ...
... Ventilating the roof space is not the same as ventilating the hive into/through that space.
...

Thanks for clarifying your response.
It nicely answers the question I originally asked.

...
Presumably its good to leave open whatever under-hive-roof ventilation as was sufficient during the rest of the year, so as to avoid damp, mould, etc above the insulation?

So, one should indeed allow the roofspace (above the insulation) to be vented - and ensure that there is some airspace above the insulation and under the roof.





Now, from the *plastic* hive floor photos I've seen, it seems that the 'hole' in the base is typically fairly small - perhaps half the floor area.
I had guessed that might be for strength.
But now I'm starting to wonder if its design intent is to provide open ventilation while reducing heat loss compared to a full-size floor opening ... ?
If so, would an "inspection board" with a big hole (something like 6 inches square) make sense as a 'winter floor'? would it be an interesting alternative to an empty super under the brood as draught control?

 

[Flatters]

Itma
As you have seen there many answers and you will find the one that suits you, possibly by experimenting. For me last year, which was my first year, I followed the advice was given by the posters on the forum I felt I could trust based on what I gleaned over the previous months. To me the advice turned out to be good and I will be doing the same this year. I was told by the person I got my bees from that in the UK it is not a cold winter where most bees die, it is warm damp winters that take the toll.

I do think though that the OMF and top ventilation is not a good idea. I doubt with no top ventilation the bees will overheat the hive as that is within their control. If however there is a chimney effect through the hive and the gaps are too big to deal with then the thermo regulation then moves out of their control.

 

[Finman]

Those figures were plucked out of the air, really. Guessed from another thread and would include spring brooding.

38kg of food at 20% water content would be about 7 1/2kg water from the honey, for a start, plus 18kgs from the carbohydrate, so 25 1/2kg water in total.

So roughly, that amount of water (15kg) would be released from 22kg of stores? About the book value for overwintering? That value would be excessive for the time the colony was clustered, for sure. I agree there.

RAB

Hope your 38kg was not dry solids!

hAH ha your solids.

I have calculated my water figure from molecule weight from respiration formula with 17% water content.

Ha ha RAB

C6 H12 O6 -- 6CO2 + 6H2O

.

 

[oliver90owner]

Finman,

Never bothered to check the water content of sugar syrup - seems a bit pointless!.
I was working on 180 and 108 relative molecular mass .... or was it twice that for sucrose...The carbon dioxide is irrelevant - that can include the oxygen sourced from the atmosphere.

Even with your water content there is 25kg water associated with 38kg of stores

38*17/100 = 6.5kg water

38*83/100*108/180 = 18.9kg

18.9 + 6.5 = 25.4kg total water released. Not 15kg, I think?

RAB

 

[Beeline]

My hive roofs are all ventilated to the exterior; it's just that my crownboards are not. That would be akin to leaving the attic door open all year round, or opening windows while using air conditioning or heating in the room! No timber product has a moisture of zero and if that moisture (and any other stray dampness) is all moved to one area, or allowed to accumulate, damp, mould and rot may well result. Ventilating the roof space is not the same as ventilating the hive into/through that space.

So how does one insulate the area above whilst maintaining roof ventilation? Surely insulation of any thickness above the crownboard would obstruct external airflow, or do you run it with two boards i.e. insulation above first board followed by another crown board, giving ventilation between 2nd board and roof?

BL