Wind proof/waterproof paper

[Finman]

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Perhaps North America just need to catch up a bit ....their beekeeping is far more spread out than ours

hobbyist beeks in the UK who are prepared to try different ideas ...

I know that Americans are as mad with their insulation talkings as British people. - Because they do not insulate their homes.

When Californian beeks give advices to Mighican and to Canada, they have not slihgtest idea what they are doing.
In Alaska they have same beekeeping furnitures as in south parts.

USA has tropical areas around Mexico Gulf. It is at same level as North Africa.
Canada is at same level as Britain.
Alaska is at same level as Finland.
Yakutsk in Siberia is at same level as Helsinki, and normally it has -40C durin Dec-Feb

USA has not at the queens, which are suitable to different climate zones, - like plants have.

In Europe countries are so small that they has its own climate zone and queens are proper in the whole counry.

In Alaska university recommends to kill bees before winter because they have not "economical way to keep colonies alive". So they get every year new bees from Florida.


And when discussing with Americans, those are right, because they have a big nation! Vain to offer to them any advices.

In some places university recommends to leave 3 boxes food for winter (50 kg).


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[user 6228]

Perhaps those North American beekeepers just don't have a clue then, but i think the idea is to warm the hives just enough for the clusters to move to fresh stores more easily.

I'm not sure it really warms the hives that much. What it does do is melt the snow in early spring, while keeping the chilling meltwater off the hive, which will allow the above zero air in sooner in and around the hive. And it does look dramatic.
I think this tar paper is like a bicycle, it gets you from A to B, it looks simple, but you don't really know how it works.

 

[Michael Palmer]

Well, the answer is, that the UK has moved on ... 60% of beekeepers on this forum insulate above the crownboard and in my (albeit limited) research the practice of winter ventilation with open feeder holes and matchsticks seems to be an antiquated idea practiced by only a few die-hard, we've always done it that way, beekeepers.

Open feeder holes and matchsticks?? Oh, I thought it was supposed to be popsicle sticks.

You've got it wrong, as far as what I do. I don't leave the feed hole open. I don't use matchsticks under the rim of the crown board to increase ventilation...or popsicle sticks to be sure.

I'm in that 60% who insulate above the crown board. I leave a small upper entrance...3/8" by 1".

And, I have to disagree. Tarpaper does increase solar gain heat, and that heat is just enough to moderate the in hive temperature.

Also, the extra heat changes the microclimate outside the hive. As an example of something I've seen often enough...

The bees have been without a cleansing flight for several months. The temperatures have been from -0sF to 20sF. A sunny cold day comes along, with no breeze. The temperatures are too cold for a flight...in the 20sF. The temperature within a few feet of the hives increases and allows the bees to cleanse. As there are a few feet of snow on the ground, it is obvious what is happening. The bees fly out and stay close to the row of hives. The snow within about 5' from the hives is heavily stained yellow. There are no yellow spots in the snow further out from the hives, and there are no dead bees scattered across the snow, as there would be with a general cleansing flight. The bees never flew further than about 5' from the hives, cleansed, and flew back into the upper entrance. Very little loss of bees.

Now, because our bees go for months with no flights, this brief flight is critical. I don't believe it would happen in the above scenario without the black wrappers.

 

[Michael Palmer]

In addition, wrapping tightly in a waterproof membrane will also retain any moisture that is in the timber of a hive ...

If you would ever see the horizontal icicle growing out from the upper entrance notch on a very cold winter night...you would understand the difference between your climate and mine. You never see the temperatures we do.

 

[Michael Palmer]

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When you wrap the hives. Note that often wrapping material gather condensation water on inner side or material. It makes more harm than good.

Good in tar paper is that you cannot see the condensation.

The paper is not wrapped over the crown board insulation...as you would a package. That certainly does hold moisture in the hive environment. It is only wrapped around the hive and is tucked under the roof rim. Really, very little condensation under the paper. Most of the moisture exits the hive as vapor...and that's the idea.

 

[Michael Palmer]

Some beekeepers do bring their bees "off the hill" for the winter, and move them to better sheltered locations for the winter. (But do try and avoid 'frost pockets'.)

Some never place their apiaries "on the hill" to begin with.

 

[mbc]

I really like wbc 's for overwintering and I think the reason the bees do so well in them is the outer skin isolates them from the chilling effect of wind over a wet surface, I imagine the tar paper achieves something similar but in a cheap, disposable way.
I have painted most of my single skin hives with cuprinol shades for much the same reason, rather than having a wet surface the rain beads and falls off the painted hives.

 

[REDWOOD]

iI had a new hive I'd just finished making at the end of summer and had nowhere to put it inside my shed so put it on a hive stand OMF BB super crown board and roof and put a black wheelie bin liner over the top of it all winter and in the spring the hive was black inside and out with mould, I asked myself how did this happen, was it no bees to keep it warm or no ventilation through the walls of the hive or something else? what ever it was I won't be rapping my hive with any materials

 

[Michael Palmer]

iI had a new hive I'd just finished making at the end of summer and had nowhere to put it inside my shed so put it on a hive stand OMF BB super crown board and roof and put a black wheelie bin liner over the top of it all winter and in the spring the hive was black inside and out with mould, I asked myself how did this happen, was it no bees to keep it warm or no ventilation through the walls of the hive or something else? what ever it was I won't be rapping my hive with any materials

Don't know what a black wheelie bin liner is...

Did you wrap the liner over the top, sealing in the moisture. Was there an upper entrance or ventilation notch to allow the moisture to escape the hive? Did you insulate the crown board?

In my opinion, the three most important things to do when preparing a hive for winter, in order of importance are:

1. Crown board insulation
2. Upper entrance/vent opening
3. Black wrapper around hive

 

[mbc]

2. Upper entrance/vent opening

Would you place such importance on the upper entrance if you were unlikely to get any significant snow ?

 

[Michael Palmer]

Yes, I would. The bees are constantly giving off water vapor, which condenses on the interior hive surfaces. So much water that it runs out the bottom entrance forming icicles at the bottom entrance. A small upper opening allows the moisture to escape the hive environment before it condenses.

 

[REDWOOD]

Don't know what a black wheelie bin liner is...

Did you wrap the liner over the top, sealing in the moisture. Was there an upper entrance or ventilation notch to allow the moisture to escape the hive? Did you insulate the crown board?

In my opinion, the three most important things to do when preparing a hive for winter, in order of importance are:

1. Crown board insulation
2. Upper entrance/vent opening
3. Black wrapper around hive

I supose in the US they would call it a trash can liner (large black plastic bag).
Open on the bottom
no insulation
no wood protective coating
no upper roof ventilation
I just think the whole thing sweated like a pig

 

[Michael Palmer]

no insulation
no wood protective coating
no upper roof ventilation
I just think the whole thing sweated like a pig

I would expect so. Two days ago, I prepared some occupied swarm traps for winter. None had upper entrance or insulation on crown board. The underside of the migratory type roof was soaking wet, as were the top bars in the top box. Mold had already begun to form, and it's hardly winter yet.

 

[user 6228]

Open feeder holes and matchsticks?? Oh, I thought it was supposed to be popsicle sticks.

".

And, I have to disagree. Tarpaper does increase solar gain heat, and that heat is just enough to moderate the in hive temperature.

Can you supply a paper or study that experimentally quantifies the net gain in side the hive I n either watts or the change in temperature profile inside the hive, with details of installation of the tar paper and the ventilation of the hive. One where it isn't just bee survival statistics but measurable physical units

When the words start to fly I prefer hard physics experiments.

 

[Michael Palmer]

Can you supply a paper or study that experimentally quantifies the net gain in side the hive I n either watts or the change in temperature profile inside the hive, with details of installation of the tar paper and the ventilation of the hive. One where it isn't just bee survival statistics but measurable physical units

When the words start to fly I prefer hard physics experiments.

No Derek, I can not. I'm a beekeeper not a physicist. I only know what I know. And, I do know that my bees winter better than those beekeepers who do not wrap, and keep there bees where I do.

So if you're going to include charts and graphs, and a paragraph on the back to describe the physics involved, you'll have to leave me out. If you want to talk 40 years of experience, and good strong colonies coming out of winter...dry and 9-12 frames of brood early, and hives full of bees from top to bottom of three box hives, then we can discuss that. I don't evaluate my bees from an armchair with a slide rule, I evaluate them by performance. My bees and my system perform!

 

[alanf]

I evaluate them by performance. My bees and my system perform!

Whatever works for you. It would be interesting to see why it works though. Or rather what the conditions in the hive are over winter.

You might have mentioned it elsewhere, but I take it you use solid floors? Did you pick up we tend to use an open mesh? That's providing air circulation without adding a top hole. We do insulate on top of crown board, or most of us do. You also have twice the stores we would have. That's a lot more water to leave the hive. Experience has given you a material with the right sort of moisture transmission properties in tar paper. Water repellent as rain drops but allows some vapour through. A budget version of Goretex. If the woodpeckers show more interest in the hives at one site than they have until now, and a covering discourages that it could be worth an experiment.

 

[user 6228]

No Derek, I can not. I'm a beekeeper not a physicist. I only know what I know. And, I do know that my bees winter better than those beekeepers who do not wrap, and keep there bees where I do.

So if you're going to include charts and graphs, and a paragraph on the back to describe the physics involved, you'll have to leave me out. If you want to talk 40 years of experience, and good strong colonies coming out of winter...dry and 9-12 frames of brood early, and hives full of bees from top to bottom of three box hives, then we can discuss that. I don't evaluate my bees from an armchair with a slide rule, I evaluate them by performance. My bees and my system perform!

Ok each to their own (I'm the experimental physicist not beekeeper). I don't dispute the advantage compared to unwrapped, my query is the reasoning as to the detail of how the advantage is obtained, and how that is then compared to other methods . I see a lot of physics misconceptions on the forums which then lead others to draw false conclusions. However , millions of people ride bicycles everyday successfully without knowing really how it works or what it is they are doing

 

[Michael Palmer]

Whatever works for you. It would be interesting to see why it works though. Or rather what the conditions in the hive are over winter.

You might have mentioned it elsewhere, but I take it you use solid floors? Did you pick up we tend to use an open mesh? That's providing air circulation without adding a top hole. We do insulate on top of crown board, or most of us do. You also have twice the stores we would have. That's a lot more water to leave the hive.

Yes, it would be interesting. I would be all for someone installing temperature and humidity probes in my hives to see what's up. I'd prepare some of each method...whatever you think appropriate, and we'll see what happens. I remember one thread I saw somewhere where the beekeeper recorded temperatures under the tarpaper, on a sunny day. 120-140 degrees F. That has to effect the hive interior/exterior microclimate.

I'm on solid bottoms. Too many hives to change now. Yes, twice the stores that you leave. Twice the winter, too. I noticed the bees were working ivy at the end of October for pollen and nectar. When does the first nectar become available in the spring? February or March? Our nectar flow is finished by the end of September. Our first pollen in 2013 was on April 15. We have more days that reach -0F, than you do reaching -0C...depending on where you are in the UK of course.

Don't get me wrong now. I would be glad to be proven wrong. I'll shake your hand with gusto. But to change now, what has worked so well for so long, because physics says I'm mis-informed, isn't going to happen. You do understand, I'm sure.

 

[Michael Palmer]

Ok each to their own (I'm the experimental physicist not beekeeper). I don't dispute the advantage compared to unwrapped, my query is the reasoning as to the detail of how the advantage is obtained, and how that is then compared to other methods . I see a lot of physics misconceptions on the forums which then lead others to draw false conclusions. However , millions of people ride bicycles everyday successfully without knowing really how it works or what it is they are doing

We agree Derek

 

[Hivemaker.]

I noticed the bees were working ivy at the end of October for pollen and nectar.

They been out working it today as well, Mike.
They will collect pollen here all year round, when the weather permits it.