Will a smallish colony still expand at this time of year?

[Anduril]

I used home made cosies on unpainted pine boxes last winter with great results.

just like you I had one small colony I was going to polynuc as I had serious doubts as to their ability to survive in a 14 x 12 box. I took the
decision after researching posts on this forum to make some cosies along with insulated roofs and insulated feeding ekes.
Although being a bit time consuming, it really worked well...the small colony's spring growth was amazing and it became my best producing
colony this year! I obviously can't attribute this all to having a cosy on, as I'm sure there are other contributing factors, but I'm convinced it helped

I had no issues with interstitial condensation and no signs of mildew or staining on the untreated (a result of running around like a headless chicken in my first year!) timber.( just to clarify, it's been pretty much the same this year!!). I do use under floor entrances with open metal floors and this is probably enough to deal with any excess humidity. It was fascinating to lift the roof off and feel the warmth on the eke feeding hole cover even on the coldest days....this heat would normally escape through the uninsulated roof

On providing an air gap....unless the air gap is completely sealed, the insulation is pretty much a waste of time as you will get a phenonenon called convective looping which will significantly reduce the effectiveness of the insulation to a point where you may as well not have bothered!

I made cosies from 25mm PIR rigid foam boards and bonded it to 3mm correx type sheets....warm and weather/windproof and overall pretty inexpensive materials wise. A couple of cheap straps to hold in place and it stayed like that until inspection time came around in the spring. Overall, as you can probably tell, I'm pretty much sold on the hive cosy idea....Not sure I'd feel the same if I had a significant number of hives though.

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I used home made cosies on unpainted pine boxes last winter with great results.

just like you I had one small colony I was going to polynuc as I had serious doubts as to their ability to survive in a 14 x 12 box. I took the
decision after researching posts on this forum to make some cosies along with insulated roofs and insulated feeding ekes.
Although being a bit time consuming, it really worked well...the small colony's spring growth was amazing and it became my best producing
colony this year! I obviously can't attribute this all to having a cosy on, as I'm sure there are other contributing factors, but I'm convinced it helped

I had no issues with interstitial condensation and no signs of mildew or staining on the untreated (a result of running around like a headless chicken in my first year!) timber.( just to clarify, it's been pretty much the same this year!!). I do use under floor entrances with open metal floors and this is probably enough to deal with any excess humidity. It was fascinating to lift the roof off and feel the warmth on the eke feeding hole cover even on the coldest days....this heat would normally escape through the uninsulated roof

On providing an air gap....unless the air gap is completely sealed, the insulation is pretty much a waste of time as you will get a phenonenon called convective looping which will significantly reduce the effectiveness of the insulation to a point where you may as well not have bothered!

I made cosies from 25mm PIR rigid foam boards and bonded it to 3mm correx type sheets....warm and weather/windproof and overall pretty inexpensive materials wise. A couple of cheap straps to hold in place and it stayed like that until inspection time came around in the spring. Overall, as you can probably tell, I'm pretty much sold on the hive cosy idea....Not sure I'd feel the same if I had a significant number of hives though.

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Similar to Vino Farm.

 

[markyfive]

Thanks for the comments and pics. Really like your design and pleased to hear it’s doing the trick.

I’ve made a prototype today and am pretty happy with it. I need the 1cm air gap all around to prevent it getting stuck.

I’m no engineer but I’d be very surprised if the whole thing is worthless because of the air gap as you suggest…in fact don’t they recommend leaving an air gap when you install it in houses? Or is it specifically that it’s open at the bottom that you think will cause an issue? Isn’t this just the same principle as a hot air balloon and the warm air will remain in the void as it will rise? If the insulation was touching the hive body wouldn’t you lose heat through thermal bridging?

As I say I’m no engineer…at the very least it should stop the wind sapping the heat from the hive…

Just need to spray paint it black.

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Thanks for the comments and pics. Really like your design and pleased to hear it’s doing the trick.

I’ve made a prototype today and am pretty happy with it. I need the 1cm air gap all around to prevent it getting stuck.

I’m no engineer but I’d be very surprised if the whole thing is worthless because of the air gap as you suggest…in fact don’t they recommend leaving an air gap when you install it in houses? Or is it specifically that it’s open at the bottom that you think will cause an issue? Isn’t this just the same principle as a hot air balloon and the warm air will remain in the void as it will rise? If the insulation was touching the hive body wouldn’t you lose heat through thermal bridging?

As I say I’m no engineer…at the very least it should stop the wind sapping the heat from the hive…

Just need to spray paint it black.

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looks fantastic, I don't think it will be worthless, just significantly reduced in effectiveness, and yes due to the open gap. Air itself is a good insulator, providing you can stop it moving away. It will however as you say stop the wind and rain hitting the hive walls and sapping away the heat.
Air gaps recommended in buildings are on the cold side of the insulation ie in cavities where the insulation is (supposedly) held tight against the inner leaf.
Thermal bridging will be entirely proportional to the 'R' value or thermal resistance of the material used. PIR being fairly high, better for instance than polystyrene.

 

[user 20297]

I know what you mean about the increase in number of hives, I've gone from four to ten this year with the obvious increase in work, storage etc.

Roof insulation is the most important as you suggest. h

How do you feed, do you just list off the entire sleeve?

I've decided that the five hives and a spare nuc'd queen, which I started the year with, is ideal, and that's what I'll be working back towards.

I'm mainly using Abelo crownboards with the built-in Ashforth feeder slots, and a 450mm high sleeve is deep enough to allow the feeder to sit protected within the insulation. I will now have to take off the whole sleeve for top-ups or fondant, but I'll be trying harder to get them fed right before the cold sets in this year.

 

[markyfive]

Similar to Vino Farm.

Vino farm?

 

[markyfive]

I've decided that the five hives and a spare nuc'd queen, which I started the year with, is ideal, and that's what I'll be working back towards.

I'm mainly using Abelo crownboards with the built-in Ashforth feeder slots, and a 450mm high sleeve is deep enough to allow the feeder to sit protected within the insulation. I will now have to take off the whole sleeve for top-ups or fondant, but I'll be trying harder to get them fed right before the cold sets in this year.

Got you

 

[user 20297]

Vino farm?

The U.S. You Tube beekeeper who is fairly u/s.
His hive design is overly complicated and has built-in flaws such as immensely deep frames which are hard to handle. There are also problems with water ingress and condensation. The insulation is permanent and there is timber on the outside.
The sleeves you have are far a better design.

 

[Sutty]

Stuffing something in between tn hive and the cosy at the bottom would reduce air movement caused by wind & increase the insulation effect. Eg foam rubber. Could still remove the cosy easily.

 

[markyfive]

The U.S. You Tube beekeeper who is fairly u/s.
His hive design is overly complicated and has built-in flaws such as immensely deep frames which are hard to handle. There are also problems with water ingress and condensation. The insulation is permanent and there is timber on the outside.
The sleeves you have are far a better design.

Thank you

A new one on me!

I'll look him up later when OH has gone to bed....There's only so much bee chat she can take

 

[user 20297]

looks fantastic, I don't think it will be worthless, just significantly reduced in effectiveness, and yes due to the open gap. Air itself is a good insulator, providing you can stop it moving away. It will however as you say stop the wind and rain hitting the hive walls and sapping away the heat.
Air gaps recommended in buildings are on the cold side of the insulation ie in cavities where the insulation is (supposedly) held tight against the inner leaf.
Thermal bridging will be entirely proportional to the 'R' value or thermal resistance of the material used. PIR being fairly high, better for instance than polystyrene.

This debate happened last year. You explained that succinctly. Externally insulated, masonry houses have the PIR butted right against the blockwork.

 

[Do224]

looks fantastic, I don't think it will be worthless, just significantly reduced in effectiveness, and yes due to the open gap. Air itself is a good insulator, providing you can stop it moving away. It will however as you say stop the wind and rain hitting the hive walls and sapping away the heat.
Air gaps recommended in buildings are on the cold side of the insulation ie in cavities where the insulation is (supposedly) held tight against the inner leaf.
Thermal bridging will be entirely proportional to the 'R' value or thermal resistance of the material used. PIR being fairly high, better for instance than polystyrene.

You sound like you know your stuff…I’ll see if I can come up with some kind of seal for around the bottom. Although a solution is eluding me so far…

 

[markyfive]

Stuffing something in between tn hive and the cosy at the bottom would reduce air movement caused by wind & increase the insulation effect. Eg foam rubber. Could still remove the cosy easily.

 

[user 20297]

Thank you

A new one on me!

I'll look him up later when OH has gone to bed....There's only so much bee chat she can take

Same issues around here; I use headphones on the laptop and she can watch rubbish on TV without interruption.

 

[Anduril]

The sleeves you have are far a better design.

The sleeves are similar to what Vino Farm used to use, out of all his hives only one survived.
But he used top entrances for overwintering.

 

[user 20297]

You sound like you know your stuff…I’ll see if I can come up with some kind of seal for around the bottom. Although a solution is eluding me so far…

Could you stuff in some strips cut from pipe insulation into the gaps?
My sleeves are a very snug fit and were assembled using my polyhive boxes as a former. But they are very, very snug on the few wooden boxes I own because the timber boxes aren't uniform size and shape. So your gap will have a practical benefit when handling the sleeves. When you look at the internal dimensions of a standard roof you find that same oversize for easy fitting and removal.

 

[user 20297]

The sleeves are similar to what Vino Farm used to use, out of all his hives only one survived.
But he used top entrances for overwintering.

Yes...I remember him referring to an earlier design, but I don't think the construction was anything like as well thought out and executed as what we are currently discussing. For simplicity I avoided the use of Correx and simply treated the foil that faces outside using roof seal paint.

 

[Anduril]

Yes...I remember him referring to an earlier design, but I don't think the construction was anything like as well thought out and executed as what we are currently discussing. For simplicity I avoided the use of Correx and simply treated the foil that faces outside using roof seal paint.

That is why I said similar.


His new design is far superior, but has minor faults which he should be addressing this winter, considering he has taken the advice of Etienne Tardif.

 

[user 20297]

That is why I said similar.


His new design is far superior, but has minor faults which he should be addressing this winter, considering he has taken the advice of Etienne Tardif.

Sorry, when you said "similar", I disagreed with you because I was thinking of his more recent design. I still don't rate that design; it's over-complicated and inflexible.
Etienne Tardiff is working in a very extreme environment and yet his approach with his own bees seems to be very pragmatic and utilitarian. The bees survive and then face an extremely short season with not much forage.
If anyone wants to have permanent, built-in insulation think it must be more straightforward to design a type of long-hive to meet that specification. Doing that to a vertical hive is awkward and unwieldy.

 

[Anduril]

Doing that to a vertical hive is awkward and unwieldy.

Wintering a vertical hive, is technically better than a long hive, when you consider the winter brood pattern, which to an extent resembles a tree, a long hive would resemble a tree that has fallen down. Also you are taking smaller units into winter, no shallow boxes on top. If you wish to insulate a vertical hive, less insulation is used.

 

[user 20297]

Wintering a vertical hive, is technically better than a long hive, when you consider the winter brood pattern, which to an extent resembles a tree, a long hive would resemble a tree that has fallen down. Also you are taking smaller units into winter, no shallow boxes on top. If you wish to insulate a vertical hive, less insulation is used.

I agree, but we were discussing the Vino Farm design, which you originally raised. It appears to effectively be a one-off, double-walled, vertical hive with insulation between. The fixed brood-box looks heavy and bulky. If that is the case he might be better going for a more conventional, insulated horizontal hive. With Vino Farm, expense, and messing about with construction, doesn't seem to be an issue.

 

[Anduril]

I agree, but we were discussing the Vino Farm design, which you originally raised. It appears to effectively be a one-off, double-walled, vertical hive with insulation between. The fixed brood-box looks heavy and bulky. If that is the case he might be better going for a more conventional, insulated horizontal hive. With Vino Farm, expense, and messing about with construction, doesn't seem to be an issue.

He is a static, not migratory beekeeper and all of his hives are being built that way. Other US beekeepers have stated that poly hives are expensive. He won't need insulation for the shallow boxes and the water ingress and condensation are being dealt with.