Wild/Feral Survivor-Thrivers: Naturally Selected Resistant Bees.

.
.
This is for discussion of bees that have acquired the ability to cope with varroa without any help. The core assumption is that in the UK and Ireland this has occurred through natural selection for the fittest strain, and any subsequent selection has built on that. The idea is to learn from each-other, what works, and why, in the realm of no-treatment beekeeping. Testimonies, questions, explanations and links to relevant scientific studies are all welcome.

I'd like the thread to be a place where the mechanisms that wild populations employ to locate and maintain resistance can be explored, in the belief that that topic holds the key to understanding why no-treatment beekeeping works in some circumstances and not in others.

 

[Garry R]

Over the years I have removed bees from the area between rafters in a house, a church roof and a chimney. I can only assume that God has had a hand in one location (church), the chimney I have wondered if the tarry deposits help with varroa control. The house rafters colony was the most vicious I have come across and again wonder if this was a factor in their success.

 

[Steve at Westerham Beeks]

We have shared some of our findings on our website. (Natural Beekeeping – Westerham Beekeepers).
We are a normal beekeeping club in the south east of England (west Kent/ east Surrey area). There are a few other clubs who are kicking off their own projects. The BBKA have published Prof Stephen Martin’s research on Varroa Resistance (https://***************/shop/bbka-special-edition-natural-varroa-resistant-honey-bees) and Stephen and his team will be present at the end of October National Honey Show. So, some momentum around the huge amount of education and training required.

 

[Steve at Westerham Beeks]

Over the years I have removed bees from the area between rafters in a house, a church roof and a chimney. I can only assume that God has had a hand in one location (church), the chimney I have wondered if the tarry deposits help with varroa control. The house rafters colony was the most vicious I have come across and again wonder if this was a factor in their success.

Hi Garry
Do you get the impression that some have been there a good while? They interest us.

The propolis envelope that Tom Seeley found around the brood area of natural nests in tree cavities is there for a reason. Marla Spivak showed that propolis reduces the bees’ immune activity and there’s been a ton of research on its anti- bacterial, viral and fungicidal properties. We think it’s very beneficial, a pain for beeks, but not a key mechanism to control varroa. Otherwise all the colonies in the Arnot Forest would have survived, when only a few got through to repopulate the nest cavities.

As for a correlation with being viscous . Let’s hope not! Again, we don’t see that

 

[Beesnaturally]

Hi Garry
Do you get the impression that some have been there a good while? They interest us.

The propolis envelope that Tom Seeley found around the brood area of natural nests in tree cavities is there for a reason. Marla Spivak showed that propolis reduces the bees’ immune activity and there’s been a ton of research on its anti- bacterial, viral and fungicidal properties. We think it’s very beneficial, a pain for beeks, but not a key mechanism to control varroa. Otherwise all the colonies in the Arnot Forest would have survived, when only a few got through to repopulate the nest cavities.

As for a correlation with being viscous . Let’s hope not! Again, we don’t see that

I'm not sure there is a key mechanism, rather I think different things work at different times and places. Its an arms race between mites and bees, and both will find ways of gaining advantage. For example in the beginning small and frequent swarming worked best - which might have been by natural selection or simply widespread availability of small cavities forcing it. At that point better tools would be expected to come forward, allowing larger colonies to get to the reproductive table. That might well have been met by something like greater fecundity in the mites; that in turn promoting one or more of the other defence mechanisms. Bees all over the world seem to win the race within perhaps 6 or 7 years, and will be refining their mix of techniques, and early-warning systems all the time. I see this as a fluid process, perhaps sometimes but certainly not always following the same course. The recent surveys made of European populations found a range of techniques as I recall. I don't recall if two or more were noted to be present in any at once.

 

[Garry R]

I'm not sure there is a key mechanism, rather I think different things work at different times and places. Its an arms race between mites and bees, and both will find ways of gaining advantage. For example in the beginning small and frequent swarming worked best - which might have been by natural selection or simply widespread availability of small cavities forcing it. At that point better tools would be expected to come forward, allowing larger colonies to get to the reproductive table. That might well have been met by something like greater fecundity in the mites; that in turn promoting one or more of the other defence mechanisms. Bees all over the world seem to win the race within perhaps 6 or 7 years, and will be refining their mix of techniques, and early-warning systems all the time. I see this as a fluid process, perhaps sometimes but certainly not always following the same course. The recent surveys made of European populations found a range of techniques as I recall. I don't recall if two or more were noted to be present in any at once.

Sorry but I have moved away from that area but certainly the bees in the church had been there for a long time and there was another colony also in the same building. I hasten to add this was in Aberdeenshire just about when Varroa was about to arrive.

 

[BaconWizard]

I know others will be thinking this, so I will post it, hoping for a great answer that can put it to rest:

if the colonies are not being managed, then what evidence is there that the colonies are the same continuous occupation? Rather than periodically collapsing and then being repopulated by another swarm who may be easily and quickly attracted by the scents and other positive attributes?

 

[Mint Bee]

a question oft asked, but almost impossible to definitively verify independently

 

[Beesnaturally]

I know others will be thinking this, so I will post it, hoping for a great answer that can put it to rest:

if the colonies are not being managed, then what evidence is there that the colonies are the same continuous occupation? Rather than periodically collapsing and then being repopulated by another swarm who may be easily and quickly attracted by the scents and other positive attributes?

I think you have to ask that in each case, and evaluate the evidence that comes forth. It seems to me that in most cases it is always possible to speculate that a colony may have died and been quickly re-occupied during the swarming season, and/or that witnesses have mistaken robbing out to normal colony activity. A colony under the continuous and careful eye of an experienced beekeeper could provide a strong witness, and that's about all. If you were really choosy you'd demand he had opened the colony periodically.

So the evidence of continuous occupation comes more from beekeepers who let hives die and leave them empty. I've done this in the past, and generally they stay empty for some time. Of course I can tell if a swarm has moved in recently during the season. The picture I have gained is that even where there are lots of colonies and I haven't practiced swarm control, there is usually a quiet empty period when pretty much anyone could tell that the colony had died. Most hive degerate to a waxmoth mess very quickly, and I've only ever noted 1 occasion when bees moved into that sort environment (it was very impressive how the dealt with it: though they didn't make to their first winter - it was quite late in the year and they were likely robbed to bits)

I think the evidence for long term survival comes much more strongly from beekeepers who keep local bees, don't treat, and live in areas where feral bees are common. The easiest explantion is that both hive bees and wild bees possess the same characteristic - they have what it takes.

 

[BaconWizard]

a question oft asked, but almost impossible to definitively verify independently

I wonder what it would take to arrange to place a webcam outside their entrance so that swarming in either direction can be checked, or prolonged lack of activity.

 

[Erichalfbee]

they have what it takes.

I know of bees untreated but monitored for many years. Two new colonies were introduced one fairly badly infested. Both have survived without any treatment in their new location. Benign DWV?

 

[Beesnaturally]

I know of bees untreated but monitored for many years. Two new colonies were introduced one fairly badly infested. Both have survived without any treatment in their new location. Benign DWV?

I think there are a number of competing explanations. Some of my hives that survive and thrive might be considered by some to be 'badly infested' at times. But they will shrug it off. The local mites might be the answer to your observation. As mites are bought in by strangers they may prove to be less fecund.

In general I'm of the John Kefuss school of beekeeping: it doesn't matter that you know _why_ it works: it matters that you know _that_ it works. So I don't spend a lot of time trying to work out what is going on - I just take care to let natural selection do its thing.

Of course most people will want to know _if_ it will work (in their location/with their stock).

 

[Beesnaturally]

I wonder what it would take to arrange to place a webcam outside their entrance so that swarming in either direction can be checked, or prolonged lack of activity.

Looking for pollen going it would confirm a proper presence (as opposed to just robbing out or scouting)

 

[BaconWizard]

I think you have to ask that in each case, and evaluate the evidence that comes forth. It seems to me that in most cases it is always possible to speculate that a colony may have died and been quickly re-occupied during the swarming season, and/or that witnesses have mistaken robbing out to normal colony activity. A colony under the continuous and careful eye of an experienced beekeeper could provide a strong witness, and that's about all. If you were really choosy you'd demand he had opened the colony periodically.

So the evidence of continuous occupation comes more from beekeepers who let hives die and leave them empty. I've done this in the past, and generally they stay empty for some time. Of course I can tell if a swarm has moved in recently during the season. The picture I have gained is that even where there are lots of colonies and I haven't practiced swarm control, there is usually a quiet empty period when pretty much anyone could tell that the colony had died. Most hive degerate to a waxmoth mess very quickly, and I've only ever noted 1 occasion when bees moved into that sort environment (it was very impressive how the dealt with it: though they didn't make to their first winter - it was quite late in the year and they were likely robbed to bits)

I think the evidence for long term survival comes much more strongly from beekeepers who keep local bees, don't treat, and live in areas where feral bees are common. The easist explantion is that both hive and wild bees possess the same characteristic - they have what it takes.

I am quite prepared to believe it, in fact I very much hope it’s true.
But for anyone to act upon it or for it to have any meaningful weight, much more than opinion is required, regardless of how expert the opinion may be.

It strikes me as entirely possible to do something about that.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I am quite prepared to believe it, in fact I very much hope it’s true.
But for anyone to act upon it or for it to have any meaningful weight, much more than opinion is required, regardless of how expert the opinion may be.

It strikes me as entirely possible to do something about that.

There are a few people here who will testify to the possibility of keeping bees treatment free - me among them. Part of the idea of putting up this blogs is to help people like yourself evaluate your own circumstances, and to find out what your chances of success are.

 

[BaconWizard]

There are a few people here who will testify to the possibility of keeping bees treatment free - me among them. Part of the idea of putting up this blogs is to help people like yourself evaluate your own circumstances, and to find out what your chances of success are.

I am well aware of that, but we are discussing feral colonies which may or may-not be in fact resistant/hygienic.

This is a very different thing from treatment-free but nevertheless managed colonies.

 

[BaconWizard]

Actually, rather than waiting to see how long-lived such colonies seem to be with webcams or weekly visits etc... why not just grab 'em? Not right now I'd suggest, but after some build-up in the spring.

They would need to go to an appropriate beek who has a good-sized breeding program and can exert some control over the future genetics (surrounding drone population, or artificial insemination) and who can test properly for the desired traits and behaviours.

But yeah, if they truly are mite-busting, then we want them. May as well just get them and find-out.

 

[Apiarist]

"...bees that have acquired the ability to cope with varroa without any help. The core assumption is that in the UK and Ireland this has occurred through natural selection for the fittest strain,..."

"...maintain resistance ..."

To properly discuss a subject one must first define what is being discussed in a clear manner, for this to occur here you are going to need to define what you mean by "cope with varroa" and also "resistance":

The former "cope with varroa", I believe is what is commonly referred to as Tolerance = meaning these Tolerant colonies take longer to die than other colonies, therefore one would need to pick a period of time that a colony needs to survive for those dead bees to be defined as Tolerant (their genetics are hopefully within the apiary); presently standard colonies in studies in mainland Europe would suggest a 44% death rate per year would be normal (in Ireland it seems closer to 55%), in the USA in the Arnot Forest (Prof. Seeley) from memory it is 23%, so I would suggest that if the apiary over seven to ten years, on average is experiencing less than 44% deaths per year it is moving towards Tolerance, and has reached it around 23%.
- from my understanding a major factor in the hives survival (based in Seeleys research) was a slowing down of the migration of varoa mites from hive to hive, enabled by each hive being 10m away from each other AND each hive being allowed to swarm each year (losing most of their varroa and a brood break in the parent hive)

The latter "resistance", is generally simple, this term appears to be used in conjunction with the Hygienic Trait, which can be tested for by the Pin Test, basically if one gets a hive consistently scoring above 75% after 6 to 7 hours then they are functionally Resistant; it appears the sets of genes which are required for this are recessive, and therefore will increase slightly, if left to themselves, but not much. It has to be bred for, there in no-one breeding A. m. mellifera in Britain or Ireland that I am aware that is doing this. (This is somewhat oversimplified, as it's not "through natural selection" so I don't think that is what is meant in the OP).

OH! Are we going to mention the results of non-treatment (gleaned from the European Studies) which are increased aggression, to a degree that the researchers couldn't approach the hives (from 3 fields away) without being stung, and no available honey to harvest?

 

[Beesnaturally]

I am well aware of that, but we are discussing feral colonies which may or may-not be in fact resistant/hygienic.

This is a very different thing from treatment-free but nevertheless managed colonies.

Well, feral colonies aren't being treated, so if they are surviving (and thriving) year on year, they can be extracted, checked over, and kept without being treated with a good hope of success. Treatment free beekeeping and wild/feral colonies are in that way all part of the same thing. If they have sufficient resistance they survive and thrive in trees and chimneys and in suitably placed hives equally well. (When I say treatment free I mean full left-alone management - things like forking out drone brood is just treating by another name. Treatment-free is letting the bees control varroa themselves).

There is more useful information from knowing they are actually thriving year-one year - it means it is very likely indeed that there is resistant opulation in the area, and so they will be more thriving resistant wild bees, swarms to be caught, and drones to be mated with.

I personally would leave happy bees where they are, but extract colonies where people want them gone. That way the bees can do their thing (wild populations need nesting sites), and you can get information from householders etc about how long they might have been there. Its how I built up my own population.

 

[Beesnaturally]

To properly discuss a subject one must first define what is being discussed in a clear manner, for this to occur here you are going to need to define what you mean by "cope with varroa" and also "resistance":

I agree completely about clarity of language. There are folk who use the words to distingush different levels of, lets say mite defence capability. But nothing is universally clear in my view. My way of thinking speaks of levels of resistance and if you want to call that tolerance that's fine. The only thing that matters is: are the bees dealing with it well on their own.

That's why I speak in terms of thriving, and select on the basis of mult-year thriving, as measured by year-on-year good crops. By definition, if those colonies were not resistant (or tolerant if you prefer) that simply wouldn't be happening. And that is all I need to know.

... from my understanding a major factor in the hives survival (based in Seeleys research) was a ...

Seeley's Arnot Forest study (link below) is now 15 years old.. It was carried out when US bees were only just starting to locate resistance, and benefited from isolation from each other (and even more from treated hives). There are good number of much more recent studies that evidence thriving wild bees, and I know of no apparent limitations on distance apart in such bees. Lots of mine are 6" apart. It doesn't seem to matter.

https://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/abs/2007/01/m6063/m6063.html
For evidence of resistance by natural selection see: Natural selection, selective breeding, and the evolution of resistance of honeybees (Apis mellifera) against Varroa - Zoological Letters

There are many similar studies, and we can bring them here as we come across them.