Why don't queen right cell raisers swarm

[Jimmy]

I'm currently rearing queens for the 1st time using a double brood queen right system.
When the queen cells are sealed, why is there a low risk of the queen swarming* (at least according to the NBU paper and most advice that I have read)?

What's suppressing this instinct?

* I reserve the right to change this when I check for the queen next week.

 

[birdsandbees]

I have asked the same question of someone who uses the cloake board method as this is what I plan o do, I was told that sometimes they do swarm
I guess this would be helped if your queen was clipped.

 

[Walrus]

Good question!

From what I've read swarming is definitely a risk, and attempts to minimise this risk are:
- using a young queen in the finisher colony (below QX, obviously)
- maintaining a shallow box of dark combs below the active brood nest to give somewhere for older bees to cluster
- putting a frame of foundation off centre in the lower brood nest to give wax builders downstairs something to do
- clip queen so that if they swarm the bees will not be lost


From Laidlaw & Page "Queen Rearing and Bee Breeding" Ch 3

 

[madasafish]

I used a Cloake Board between a Q+ brood box and a Q-/Q+ top brood box last year..five times. .. to raise queen cells.

Did not see swarm cells in lower box. And no swarming when virgin queens emerged in top box...

 

[SDM]

With the queen excluded from the box with the cells they're raised under the suoercedure impulse not the swarming impulse( lack of footprint pheromone?)
Queens swarm when they're told to so I can't see them swarming with what they must consider to be a failing queen.

 

[For want of a better word]

I used a Cloake Board between a Q+ brood box and a Q-/Q+ top brood box last year..five times. .. to raise queen cells.

Did not see swarm cells in lower box. And no swarming when virgin queens emerged in top box...

I take the queen cells to the incubator on day 14.... but have not had any swarming problem over the last 6 years of using this method.

Yeghes da

 

[Michael Palmer]

With the queen excluded from the box with the cells they're raised under the suoercedure impulse not the swarming impulse( lack of footprint pheromone?)

Would that be supercedure or emergency? I'm thinking emergency.

 

[SDM]

Would that be supercedure or emergency? I'm thinking emergency.

I always figured that because they'd still be detecting qmp etc just at reduced levels that it would be suoercedure.

 

[DanBee]

I've not had any incidence of a queen right queen raiser swarming in 12 years of using the NBU system.

It's not a system that can be convincingly explained in terms of emergency, supercedure, or swarming impulses for queen raising.

Would that be supercedure or emergency? I'm thinking emergency.

I always figured that because they'd still be detecting qmp etc just at reduced levels that it would be suoercedure.

The queen cells are being raised in an upper brood box, separated from the lower brood box (and queen) by only a queen excluder. Thus the workers have free passage between both brood nest halves, so it's not likely to be an emergency response. The quantity that they raise (happily 24 or more open QCs at a time, twice a week for at least 4-6 weeks) appears to be way beyond normal supercedure behaviour, more akin to swarm cell numbers... but they do not swarm after cell sealing. Queen raising in a queenright colony (without swarming) is usually associated with supercedure, but they have access to a healthy, young, laying queen.

The basic trigger for cell raising seems to be the appearance of queen cups populated with larvae; workers continue to feed and raise them as queens as if following the action of others, even if they did not themselves initiate it.

 

[Walrus]

The NBU uses the method described here:
http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/downloadDocument.cfm?id=36

An extract from that:
"Occasionally a queen in the lower box of a queen rearer has
swarmed, but this is very much the exception. Many queenless
cell-starter methods use queenright cell-finishers without swarm
problems. However, we have had swarming problems when the
colony chosen as a rearer had already been making swarm preparations
that year. We therefore now avoid such colonies for rearing
queen cells. Ensuring that a rearer colony is headed by a young
queen reared the previous season probably also helps reduce the
risk of it swarming"

 

[Finman]

.
However, when I rear queens in the swarming fever hive, it ends to swarming, and emerging virgins act in cells like swarm virgins. When virgins emerge in their cage, they are ready fly.

Queen rearing starts normally with emergency situation and continues that way.

.

 

[Hivemaker.]

The quantity that they raise (happily 24 or more open QCs at a time, twice a week for at least 4-6 weeks) appears to be way beyond normal supercedure behaviour, more akin to swarm cell numbers... but they do not swarm after cell sealing. Queen raising in a queenright colony (without swarming) is usually associated with supercedure, but they have access to a healthy, young, laying queen.

The basic trigger for cell raising seems to be the appearance of queen cups populated with larvae; workers continue to feed and raise them as queens as if following the action of others, even if they did not themselves initiate it.

If no grafted cells are put into the top box and they have the means to raise cells they often won't make any, and if they do it is usually very few and more likely with an older queen below, more like a supercedure impulse. Sometimes they won't happily take grafted or started cells either, despite being mega strong.
When they do take grafted cells it's more like the follow the leader in the second paragraph.

 

[SDM]

If no grafted cells are put into the top box and they have the means to raise cells they often won't make any, and if they do it is usually very few and more likely with an older queen below, more like a supercedure impulse. Sometimes they won't happily take grafted or started cells either, despite being mega strong.
When they do take grafted cells it's more like the follow the leader in the second paragraph.

That's why I still use a Q- starter and transfer after 24hrs.
I find the take is better.