Why are Nationals so popular? (and other advice appreciated)

[Joe_01]

Hey guys,

I've had quite a successful year this year and so I am planning a bit of expansion (up to 5 more hives) for next year. I have been doing a lot of research into the different hive types and which ones are best for me for the following year as I have only had two hive (one National, one Langstroth - No preference between them) so far.

In doing so, I've found that (obviously) the National hive is the most popular in the UK however I can't understand why it would be. Although there are multiple different hives, Langstroth is the main rival.

1) Langstroth hives are the most popular in the world (excluding the UK)
2) Langstroth hives are generally cheaper
3) Langstroth hives have more cells (more bang for your buck)
4) Langstroth hives are top bee spaced (I know this may be personal preference but it seems people like TBS more)
5) With prolific queens Nationals brood boxes are usually seen as too small (and no way am I doing brood and a half)

The only thing I can see going for the National is the larger handles, larger lugs to hold, lighter (only because they have less cells), and how common the equipment is.

Is there any big reason I am missing on about why Nationals are so popular or is it just a "Made in Britain, used by Britain" type of thing?

Thanks,

Joe

P.S. Any other advice or preference that you would like to share about other hives as well (TBH, Long hives, Polys, etc.) is also appreciated.

 

[enrico]

It is the latter. It was just a convenient size for the British bee before we started importing more prolific queen's. When I started the thought of brood and a half of double brood never seemed to come up. The bees managed fine on a single national. Not so much now! Now we know so much more about a bees life!
E

 

[gmonag]

I think you have analysed the situation very well.

Go for it - try a few Langstroths and then you will know which you prefer. There are plenty of suppliers that stock them.

 

[Speybee]

Hey guys,

I've had quite a successful year this year and so I am planning a bit of expansion (up to 5 more hives) for next year. I have been doing a lot of research into the different hive types and which ones are best for me for the following year as I have only had two hive (one National, one Langstroth - No preference between them) so far.

In doing so, I've found that (obviously) the National hive is the most popular in the UK however I can't understand why it would be. Although there are multiple different hives, Langstroth is the main rival.

1) Langstroth hives are the most popular in the world (excluding the UK)
2) Langstroth hives are generally cheaper
3) Langstroth hives have more cells (more bang for your buck)
4) Langstroth hives are top bee spaced (I know this may be personal preference but it seems people like TBS more)
5) With prolific queens Nationals brood boxes are usually seen as too small (and no way am I doing brood and a half)

The only thing I can see going for the National is the larger handles, larger lugs to hold, lighter (only because they have less cells), and how common the equipment is.

Is there any big reason I am missing on about why Nationals are so popular or is it just a "Made in Britain, used by Britain" type of thing?

Thanks,

Joe

P.S. Any other advice or preference that you would like to share about other hives as well (TBH, Long hives, Polys, etc.) is also appreciated.

The reason I use wbc ( weather can be cold up here) the extra insulation is a plus.
The reason I use a regular National ( try and fit in your car and then move a wbc full of bees along a bumpy track)
Another reason I use a National as opposed to a Langstroth, is I would have to beef up like Arnie Schwarznegger to be able to lift up a full super of honey.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Started with Nationals and moved to 14x12. Spent a lot of time faffing about converting them to top space before it became commonplace. Now I do the same converting poly 14x12 to top space. If I was starting again it would be poly Lang for the obvious reason

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Is there any big reason I am missing on about why Nationals are so popular or is it just a "Made in Britain, used by Britain" type of thing?

That

And what you have now is actually the modified national before WW2 the national was a straight sided box with a small handhold same as Langstroths with just two ends thicker to accomodate the longer lugs which the dinosaurs had insisted on (you look at commercials, same footprint, small lugs, bigger frames), then the obsession with keeping the bees cold and austerity saving of timber brought about the side rails etc of the modified nat making them more fiddly to build.

 

[Anduril]

Many beekeepers use the National, if there are problems with your hive then there are a greater number of people to help you out, but using modification and ingenuity anyone can help. Looking across the pond they have 8 frame and 10 frame Langstroth we have the latter. My mongrels would certainly fit a Langstroth. Also there is the move towards one brood box management.

 

[GuyNir]

National box is square, so can be used with frames warm or cold way. I keep mine the warm way - help blocking the wind a bit and also I prefer inspecting standing at the back.

 

[Antipodes]

The reason I use wbc ( weather can be cold up here) the extra insulation is a plus.
The reason I use a regular National ( try and fit in your car and then move a wbc full of bees along a bumpy track)
Another reason I use a National as opposed to a Langstroth, is I would have to beef up like Arnie Schwarznegger to be able to lift up a full super of honey.

I use an 8 frame Langstroth "ideal" sized box (which is 146mm high) for brood and for supers. Not too heavy, not too light. Common in that format only here is Tas as I understand it. The further north in Aus you go (towards the tropics) they tend to move from an 8 frame towards the 10 frame....and full depth. Big strong people on the cane farms. Funny thing can happen there...cane toads get into the hives when small, eat bees as if there is no tomorrow, and get too big to get out again. They just get bigger and bigger in the hive. Quite a shock when you open the hive I'm guessing.

 

[understanding_bees]

Antipodes said, " I use an 8 frame Langstroth "ideal" sized box (which is 146mm high) for brood and for supers. Not too heavy, not too light. "
Many years ago I hurt my back, and now as I am getting older the weight of a hive box is an important consideration for me. I too think that the 8-frame medium depth box is "Ideal". When we consider the space required by a good sized colony, many people might say that the Ideal box is not big enough, but that is why this size is probably ideal for double-brood-boxes.
In a recent posting on this forum, (in answering a question I had raised) someone suggested that I should look at the Rose Hive method, and I am glad for their suggestion. As I have read about this method, I am becoming more convinced than ever about the merits of this method. The Rose Hive method is not about the style or size of the hive boxes, but rather about using only one size of boxes, enabling easy manipulation of the hive boxes. I have not seen any comments by Tim Rowe of the "Ideal" box itself, and here again I have come to the conclusion that whoever first called this box size "Ideal" knew what they were talking about.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Funny thing can happen there...cane toads get into the hives when small, eat bees as if there is no tomorrow, and get too big to get out again. They just get bigger and bigger in the hive. Quite a shock when you open the hive I'm guessing.

Now that, if true, is the stuff of nightmares!

 

[bobthecob]

Is there any big reason I am missing on about why Nationals are so popular

Well, the main reason people use nationals is because of the "network" effect. It's kind of the same reason everyone uses Facebook - because all their friends use it (not quite the same I know).

Most people use nationals (poly in my case) because (almost) everyone else uses nationals, so we benefit from the network effect in doing so. That means I can give or sell a nuc easily to another beekeeper, or buy one from him and put it in my equipment. The equipment itself is cheap, and widely available. New, modern designs (e.g. the new Abelos) come out in national format first (and sometimes only ever come out in nationals). The frames are easy to handle with those wide lugs (I have used small-lugged Smith frames before which are like langstroths - never again!).

Top bee space would be better - that's the one thing I wish the designers of the modified national had included. But you can convert a national to top bee space quite easily with a solid or perspex crownboard, so that's not really a major issue.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Top bee space would be better - that's the one thing I wish the designers of the modified national had included.

Yes. Sadly lacking in poly but easily remedied

 

[The Poot in Somerset]

The network effect is very relevant. My first bees came from a lady using Langstroths, I’m on nationals. She /we had to cut the wax and tie onto my frames with elastic bands. She took several stings and it was a right old faff.
In retrospect I think adopting single box Langstroth would have saved me the further faff of trying 14X12 before making the mistake of brood and a half. Going with nationals has allowed me to use nucs, give away excess colonies easily etc. Langstroth and 14X12 are both heavy work.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

I mostly use Nationals and some colonies need double brood boxes in summer and would be too big for a 10 frame Lang so I would need to go to double langstroth - so no single-box advantage there. A 14 x 12 frame can't be extracted to get drawn frames and yes, I have tried them and usually the bottom part of the frames just gets messy in any case. For the bee space argument, I have some nucs with top bee space and a plywood crown-board without a wooden strip around it fails quite quickly, so bottom bee space is fine by me. The lifting of supers with a decent handle works for me with nationals; I couldn't lift three fairly full supers off with my fingertips. I use supers with castellations (9 for Nats and 8 for WBC's). I do like the long lugs of Nationals too, but that's not too significant for me. One thing I don't understand is that WBC's have a frame less than Nationals. IF they had been the same sized brood box, it would make life easier for some who have WBC's in the garden because SWIMBO likes the look of them, and Nationals elsewhere. And WBC's are even smaller so for me, they are more likely to go to double brood. I think you get used to whatever you use.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I mostly use Nationals and some colonies need double brood boxes in summer and would be too big for a 10 frame Lang so I would need to go to double langstroth - so no single-box advantage there. A 14 x 12 frame can't be extracted to get drawn frames and yes, I have tried them and usually the bottom part of the frames just gets messy in any case.

How come? I’m on 14x12 and regularly spin brood frames?

 

[Murox]

I see there is a lot of comment about the size of boxes and especially regarding langstroth and the 3 variants available and whether a double brood box is too big/too heavy and so on. There is no 'rule' that says you must put a full compliment of frames in any box, its simple matter to make up some insulated dummies of different thicknesses and you can find extractors for any size of frame including dadant deep.
I think its all about convenience for beekeepers and convention.

 

[Amari]

Between 1972 and 1999 (Hampshire then Cheshire) I kept my bees on Jumbo Langsroths. Those were the days when I bought my clothes from M&S 'Tall Slimfit' section. Sadly this is no longer the case.
I changed to Nationals on moving to Suffolk. Main advantage is boxes full of honey are lighter [Dani, how do you manage to lift a 14x12 BB? Are you an Amazon? Please send us a pic]
Other advantages as above: square boxes, long lugs, secure handholds, greatest availability of accessories.

 

[Erichalfbee]

[Dani, how do you manage to lift a 14x12 BB? Are you an Amazon? Please send us a pic]

I have Stan.

 

[bingevader]

So Stan is the Amazon?!
We don't want the pics of him in the jungle bikini thanks.