Which type of bees?

[Apple]

Strange that.. Murray must be lucky

I keep non AMM non Black bees. And my honey yields per hive appear - only speaking locally - to be as high if not higher than most locals - who keep local bees..

I must be lucky as well

55kg per colony... not bad!

 

[Levitt53]

HiLevitt53 our broadband (BT - the only fibre optic in the area so can hardly change to someone else ) has been down over 2 weeks now so unable to watch. Do you know if they record them for later ‘catchup’? I am a member of BIBBA so should really be asking them - gutted I’m missing them though

Hi yes they are still on the website as recordings. I missed the first one so am still on catch up. 4 down (I'm half way through number 3) 5 to go I think.

 

[North End Bees]

HiLevitt53 our broadband (BT - the only fibre optic in the area so can hardly change to someone else ) has been down over 2 weeks now so unable to watch. Do you know if they record them for later ‘catchup’? I am a member of BIBBA so should really be asking them - gutted I’m missing them though

You can also watch the previous 2 seasons recorded earlier in lockdown.

Also, if you're a member you can download the PDFs of each one (useful as a memory jog if and when the recordings are taken down).

 

[Nige.Coll]

Cornish variant of the endemic population of native Amm when their DNA was analysed showed that they were specific to a number of different and isolated areas. Showing that the populations had not mixed and that importation of Amm from other areas of the UK and Europe had not happened. Research carried out at University of Plymouth by Dr Jon Ellis, but possibly not published as yet.

Imported queen bees into the UK represent about 5% of the total number of colonies in the UK, the%numbers of colonies headed up by a newly imported queen reduce dramatically if one considers that about only two thirds will survive introduction. What numbers of Amm are imported, and where is this information published?
Even Mr Carreck cannot answer that question

Chons da

You being where you are in the UK are in a very lucky situation. 99% of the UK doesn't share your luck.

The numbers aren't published or recorded that was my point.
If it's only 5% and only two thirds will survive so realistically around 3% why is it so much of an issue to you and others ?
Why make such a big thing of it ?

 

[Murox]

Fair enough but if you check the larger queen rearing set ups world wide you will see open mated queens f1/first cross as the main stay of the production queens they produce. Isolated/island mated are a premium and as many state are suitable for the production of f1/first cross. See the link and description I posted above and type 2 queens

Its not who produces them nor how they are produced or used that I question; rather, it is your assertion “f1 queens from a decent pure/line/race reliably breed true to the mother, as above the local rif raf they mate with has little effect on the character of her offspring.”
How many generations of line breeding does it take ---”they are line bred to form a stable bee same effect as those of a pure race/strain?”

 

[North End Bees]

Its not who produces them nor how they are produced or used that I question; rather, it is your assertion “f1 queens from a decent pure/line/race reliably breed true to the mother, as above the local rif raf they mate with has little effect on the character of her offspring.”
How many generations of line breeding does it take ---”they are line bred to form a stable bee same effect as those of a pure race/strain?”

I too would like to see evidence for this assertion.
If 'the local rif raf they mate with has little effect on the character of her offspring', then why would breeders go to such lengths as II or island mating to produce bees of a determined character?

 

[Apple]

You being where you are in the UK are in a very lucky situation. 99% of the UK doesn't share your luck.

The numbers aren't published or recorded that was my point.
If it's only 5% and only two thirds will survive so realistically around 3% why is it so much of an issue to you and others ?
Why make such a big thing of it ?

I think the great unwashed were waiting for you to explain... preferably with some nice charts...
a bit like the Boris show presentations???

Perhaps a bee lockdown is the answer!

Chons da

 

[Ian123]

[/I]then why would breeders go to such lengths as II or island mating to produce bees of a determined character?
[/QUOTE]
Because those isolated mated or II queens are subsequently capable of producing f1/first cross queens. Buckfast - 5 Types Pls read type 1 ....random mated ie f1/first cross.....type 2 island mated..suitable for production of f1 queens.

 

[North End Bees]

Because those isolated mated or II queens are subsequently capable of producing f1/first cross queens. Buckfast - 5 Types Pls read type 1 ....random mated ie f1/first cross.....type 2 island mated..suitable for production of f1 queens.

Yes, I understand that. My question was re the previous assertion that 'the local rif raf they mate with has little effect on the character of her offspring'.

This implies that the drones' genetic contribution is negligible, which is patently not true.

 

[Nige.Coll]

I think the great unwashed were waiting for you to explain... preferably with some nice charts...
a bit like the Boris show presentations???

Perhaps a bee lockdown is the answer!

Chons da

Nah never happen.
A bit like banning imports.
But I guess it's ok to import bees if you need them to provide resources for queen rearing eh!

 

[Ian123]

Patently true or not open/random mated f1 queens from a Pure race/line form the basis of most Large scale queen rearing operations world wide. For the simple reason they on the vast majority of occasions breed true to the mother. Just FYI I’ve been doing the same since I was 12 years of age, not far off the big 50 now. I’ll make you an offer your not a million miles away, next season come and collect a couple of virgins. Take them down your way and report back here what they are like once mated.

 

[Nige.Coll]

Patently true or not open/random mated f1 queens from a Pure race/line form the basis of most Large scale queen rearing operations world wide. For the simple reason they on the vast majority of occasions breed true to the mother. Just FYI I’ve been doing the same since I was 12 years of age, not far off the big 50 now. I’ll make you an offer your not a million miles away, next season come and collect a couple of virgins. Take them down your way and report back here what they are like once mated.

Wasting your time typing.
You're dealing with the Bee National Party.

 

[Swarm]

Wasting your time typing.
You're dealing with the Bee National Party.

Charming post! And you think it's so funny? I'm wondering whether to report it tbh

 

[North End Bees]

Patently true or not open/random mated f1 queens from a Pure race/line form the basis of most Large scale queen rearing operations world wide. For the simple reason they on the vast majority of occasions breed true to the mother. Just FYI I’ve been doing the same since I was 12 years of age, not far off the big 50 now. I’ll make you an offer your not a million miles away, next season come and collect a couple of virgins. Take them down your way and report back here what they are like once mated.

Appreciate the offer but I know what the report will be. Open mating with the drones in my locality will result in the same mish-mash of genes I've been working hard to get away from.

I appreciate that some people are happy to requeen with f1 Buckfasts every year but that's the opposite of sustainable. And does no favours for the local population.

I also appreciate that you've got a lot of experience to draw on but it's still the case that the next open-mated generation won't have the exact same character as the f1 mother, which you are claiming. If the drones don't have a genetic input, evolution would have dispensed with them a long time ago.

Unless you produce your queens by cloning?

 

[Nige.Coll]

Charming post! And you think it's so funny? I'm wondering whether to report it tbh

report away mate it isn't me with the closed mind and one track agenda.
I have not broken forum rules in any way.
I haven't edited quotes to twist them and it wasn't me that brought politics into the thread first.
Does the truth hurt ?

 

[madasafish]

Cornish variant of the endemic population of native Amm when their DNA was analysed showed that they were specific to a number of different and isolated areas. Showing that the populations had not mixed and that importation of Amm from other areas of the UK and Europe had not happened. Research carried out at University of Plymouth by Dr Jon Ellis, but possibly not published as yet.

Imported queen bees into the UK represent about 5% of the total number of colonies in the UK, the%numbers of colonies headed up by a newly imported queen reduce dramatically if one considers that about only two thirds will survive introduction. What numbers of Amm are imported, and where is this information published?
Even Mr Carreck cannot answer that question

Chons da

All this righteousness about importing non local bees!

What about the imports of non native AMM from Norther Ireland?

Obviously not native to England, Scotland or Wales.

(I am NOT having a pop at Johnathan Getty.)

 

[madasafish]

ForageFlight said:
If I was you I would go for natives AMM or local bees. COLOSS a resurch oranisation have proven that local bee survives and gathers the most honey over the years.

I am unfamiliar with the " more honey" research. Could you please provide a link please..
Thanks

I note I have not yet had a reply to my request above for information on the research showing AMM bees gather more honey over the years..


I do hope I am not going to be disappointed and not learn something new.

 

[Apple]

Nah never happen.
A bit like banning imports.
But I guess it's ok to import bees if you need them to provide resources for queen rearing eh!

OK hands up we did try bringing in some queens season before this one. ( 2019 season)
Two very different areas of the South West... one a shetlered valley on the South West fringes of Dartmoor, and the other ( managed by my beebreeding partner) high up on the Blackdown hills in a cider apple orchard.
Queens (£35 each!!)were from an importer base in Gloustershire, supplied in cages marked with 5 little helpers.... from "Greek Buckfast F1 stock" ( whatever that is but recommended as best bees by a Hereford bases beefarmer)
Release followed our usual protocol of using hoplessly queenless 3 frame nucs made up from "local" bees ( Dummied down Paynes) fed with 1:1 syrup.
Un~ opend cage left in 24 hours, then tab removed ( helpers left in) gentle mist of warm water with 2 drops lemon grass oil per 1/2 liter. Left alone for 3 days with qx closed, checked for cage empty ( was in all cases), cage removed, feed topped up and nuc left alone for another week.
Nucs checked for eggs and queen ( no desperate attempt to find queens, but when located were clipped) dummy frames removed and three more ( pre drawn) added
Success of queens introduced and laying worker brood was 7 out of 10 in both sets.

I had two queens completely vanish and one drone layer.
My co worker had one completely vanish and two immediately superseeded.
The bees provided in the nucs were from our own stock of local Italian mongrels

The expectation was to get huge colonies very quickly later in the season to provide surrogate bees for our native bee breeding program ( New mated queens from DNA tested Cornish black bees mothers... open mated on Rame Peninsular Cornwall.... absolutely flooded with native drones from a number of beekeepers).

Both apiary sites had produced reasonable quantities of honey in previous years using the local type bees, 20 to 35 kg per colony.

2019 was a good honey year... but these "new queens" just did not live up to our expectations... did produce a lot of brood and then in all but one case were superceeded, we had to feed them all the time!
In my "Greek Buckfast" colonies the "Danish pastry" virus was evident plus the brood seemed to be susceptible to chalk and bald brood.
Thoughts were to overwinter the colonies and see if they were productive in 2020.
Colonies went into winter well supplied with stores and either OA sublimation ( my own) or Apivar strips to knock down varroa.

A further 3 colonies in each apiary did not survive the winter, leaving 5 on each site, I had the only marked "Greek Buckfast" remaining.

Covid 19 saw my partner up on the Blackdowns go into "Total shielding", due to health problems... and I went into virtual lockdown,... basically because I am in the venerable age group , post 70... just caring for the bees and avoiding all contact with anyone!
( Not difficult as I can go all day without seeing a soul when beekeeping!)

This season I did manage some grafting and made up 2 runs of 14 Swibines using the "Greek Buckfast" bees as surrogates, open mated at one of my sites... total disaster!

We did manage to raise about 50 nice native queens, using our natives to make up the mating nucs...
all now overwintering in 6 frame nucs.

Gave up on the remaining "Greek Buckfast" ( superceeded) colonies... barely got a super of honey off of each and the last of the marked queens swarmed and got lost ( they were all clipped) in July.

Experiment was a failure and goes to prove my hypotheses that imported bees are not ( in my case) fit for purpose... due to not being adapted to our climatic conditions/ environment???
My partner up on the Blackdowns got totally dispondant and seems to have got involved with a carp fishery!!!

Won't be doing that again!!!

Chons da

 

[gmonag]

Is this an example of a F1 Bee?

 

[Swarm]

report away mate it isn't me with the closed mind and one track agenda.
I have not broken forum rules in any way.
I haven't edited quotes to twist them and it wasn't me that brought politics into the thread first.
Does the truth hurt ?

You've simply made everyone aware of the type of person you are.