Which type of bees?

[fiat500bee]

We should really stop using the Hybrid formula of F1, F2, it's convenient but that's about all, it may apply to seeds but not bees.

I can't work it out either because an F1 hybrid plant has two distinct parental types which have to used again when more seed is required. My understanding of Buckfast, for instance, is that it was developed from multiple generations and crosses of different bees; how is that replicated in the present day? Is there an exact parental combination/formula of two or more types of bee which makes a "pure" Buckfast?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

To be fair I had a colonsay queen and made the mistake of breeding from it. They are all dead now.

A beemaster I know who breeds queens on a commercial scale tried Colonsay queens a few years ago, the first year he had them for sale they looked wonderful, Mostly II mated. Thinking I might try a few the next season I saw him in the spring and asked him how the colonsay queens were doing - 'gatepost' was his reply - each and every one, and their progeny had terrible chalkbrood issues.

 

[Nige.Coll]

A beemaster I know who breeds queens on a commercial scale tried Colonsay queens a few years ago, the first year he had them for sale they looked wonderful, Mostly II mated. Thinking I might try a few the next season I saw him in the spring and asked him how the colonsay queens were doing - 'gatepost' was his reply - each and every one, and their progeny had terrible chalkbrood issues.

And nosema and also cannot cope with varroa at all.

 

[Nige.Coll]

I can't work it out either because an F1 hybrid plant has two distinct parental types which have to used again when more seed is required. My understanding of Buckfast, for instance, is that it was developed from multiple generations and crosses of different bees; how is that replicated in the present day? Is there an exact parental combination/formula of two or more types of bee which makes a "pure" Buckfast?

Buckfast against all that is said are genetically stable. It took decades to make them so.

 

[Swarm]

And nosema and also cannot cope with varroa at all.

Wow, that's a surprise. They've never seen it, how did your bees cope when varroa first arrived?

 

[Swarm]

What would we call a first and second cross then? I wish B+ was still on here because he could explain the percentage of first and second crosses really well.
Are you implying that I'm lazy Steve and whine!! or am I getting your post wrong.. Apologies if I am.

Yep, you got it wrong and no apology needed either.
F1 and F2 are known quantities in breeding terms but bees as you know become an unknown quantity with the first open mated queen.
I don't like the term mongrel but you can't call them 50/50's even.
As for the Colonsay bees, I imagine Andrew Abrahams must be having a torrid time with all those terrible queens.
I doubt it.

 

[BugsInABox]

Buckfast against all that is said are genetically stable. It took decades to make them so.

Well that changes everything - is it true?

 

[ericbeaumont]

My understanding of Buckfast, for instance, is that it was developed from multiple generations and crosses of different bees; how is that replicated in the present day?

The story as I know it (from a beekeeper involved in the Buckfast trade) is that Br Adam's records are used as a reference for current work and that registered European BF breeders from Denmark to Cyprus operate this way.

Take care not to confuse any old BF on offer with the real deal.

 

[fiat500bee]

Take care not to confuse any old BF on offer with the real deal.

I don't think I'll be going for any queen of whatever type; I want to try to maintain my own supplies from my local mish-mash and my existing Buckie Babes. But coincidentally, last night via Facebook, a breeder popped up I had not heard of, who is very local to me in the North of Scotland. It all sounds very competent and if prices are judge of quality, these bees must be extremely good. (Link provided...no affiliation or recommendation.)

https://www.buckfastqueens.co.uk/

 

[Ian123]

F1 and F2 are known quantities in breeding terms but bees as you know become an unknown quantity with the first open mated queen.

......No that’s not correct, f1 type bees are a very known quantity it’s what most large scale bee breeders the world over use for production hives/general sale. From a decent breeder queen your f1 reliably breeds true to the mother even if open mated with any local rif raf. They certainly give far more consistent results than any open mated mongrel, even from the best selected.

 

[ericbeaumont]

But coincidentally, last night via Facebook, a breeder popped up I had not heard of, who is very local to me in the North of Scotland. [/URL]

Instagram link reveals that Graham Miller uses German, Danish and Swedish breeder queens; prices look reasonable; copy needs polishing: bit odd to use the BBC and an old yield figure to gain sales; would boost trade rep if the website had a my story page.

 

[Swarm]

......No that’s not correct, f1 type bees are a very known quantity it’s what most large scale bee breeders the world over use for production hives/general sale. From a decent breeder queen your f1 reliably breeds true to the mother even if open mated with any local rif raf. They certainly give far more consistent results than any open mated mongrel, even from the best selected.

F1 describes the result of two known quantities. Unless you know the genetic make up of every drone that mates with your queen and even then I would expect them all to be the same.

 

[Levitt53]

BIBBAs National Bee Improvement webinars are very interesting. Webinars – BIBBA

 

[Ian123]

F1 describes the result of two known quantities. Unless you know the genetic make up of every drone that mates with your queen and even then I would expect them all to be the same.

Yes we know that But in beekeeping terms f1 is used to describe the first cross open mated the world over, I’ll let you start emailing them all and telling them there wrong. What you did clearly say was that the bees become an unknown quantity and that is clearly wrong as I said above it’s what the majority of large scale breeders do to produce production queens world wide. Ian

 

[Swarm]

You don't know the one half, it's an unknown quantity meaning you don't know it's make up. How can any bee breeder know what the queens mate with if they are open mated? As I said earlier, it's just a convenient way to describe a cross bred queen or 'near buckfast' I suppose.

 

[Ian123]

You don't know the one half, it's an unknown quantity meaning you don't know it's make up. How can any bee breeder know what the queens mate with if they are open mated? As I said earlier, it's just a convenient way to describe a cross bred queen or 'near buckfast' I suppose.

Your missing the point f1 queens from a decent pure/line/race reliably breed true to the mother, as above the local rif raf they mate with has little effect on the character of her offspring. So the queens are very much a known quantity in what you expect from them. You’ll see from larger queen producers open mated offered at a price then those isolated/island mated at significantly more. What they will generally describe as open mated for production colonies and not the production of further queens.

 

[Murox]

Your missing the point f1 queens from a decent pure/line/race reliably breed true to the mother, as above the local rif raf they mate with has little effect on the character of her offspring. So the queens are very much a known quantity in what you expect from them. You’ll see from larger queen producers open mated offered at a price then those isolated/island mated at significantly more. What they will generally describe as open mated for production colonies and not the production of further queens.

It would be interesting to see some evidence of that assertion, other than anecdotal.

 

[Apple]

Your missing the point f1 queens from a decent pure/line/race reliably breed true to the mother, as above the local rif raf they mate with has little effect on the character of her offspring. So the queens are very much a known quantity in what you expect from them. You’ll see from larger queen producers open mated offered at a price then those isolated/island mated at significantly more. What they will generally describe as open mated for production colonies and not the production of further queens.

NO... that is a totally wrong assumption when linked to rearing honeybees, which I may point out are social insects....
To ensure a pure breeding line one would need an isolated community.... such as on a remote Hebridean island, or use Instrumental Insemination from a captive colony ( ie not free flying)producing drones.

There never will be a PURE so called "Buckfast" bee... and anyone thinking that way must be in Cloud cuckoo land!

Yeghes da

 

[Antipodes]

NO... that is a totally wrong assumption when linked to rearing honeybees, which I may point out are social insects....
To ensure a pure breeding line one would need an isolated community.... such as on a remote Hebridean island, or use Instrumental Insemination from a captive colony ( ie not free flying)producing drones.

There never will be a PURE so called "Buckfast" bee... and anyone thinking that way must be in Cloud cuckoo land!

Yeghes da

Like the Ligurian bees of Kangaroo Island?

 

[Apple]

Like the Ligurian bees of Kangaroo Island?

Pray... tell us more