Where have all the Wasps Gone

[Luminos]

But isn't it right that if you keep brood combs too long, the bees which emerge are smaller? So that's not size being determined by genetics. Or food.

 

[nickhodge]

Found one Saturday

While doing my inspections on Saturday I decided to make some photography part of it as it was so warm and look who was trying to make an entry. 'Looks like one of the girls is saying "Come on then if you think you're hard enough!"

 

[Karol]

Pest controllers have been reporting this year the exact opposite of what you have said.
I have witnessed it too, the start of the season we saw very small workers, about 3/4 the size of normal, and as the season has progressed into "better" conditions, the size of workers has returned to normal.

Just for clarification, this is not just me saying it.
I dont believe that we were treating one variant earlier than the other.

I don't think there is any inconsistency here. What I said is it is quite rare for runts to be produced, not that it doesn't happen. I appreciate the reports being made by pest controllers and I have no reason to doubt them. We have received the same reports. The difficulty however is that pest controllers go in and treat nests so they get a snap shot which is then terminated with the eradication of the nest. It is entirely possible (and I'm not saying this was the case) that the smaller variant was more advanced (in terms of life cycle) which is why pest controllers reported what they did. It is also possible that the larger variant then caught up and therefore has become more 'visible' giving the appearance that larger more normal size wasps are now being produced.

What we don't see is pest controllers doing specific post mortems on nests - not that that will always tell them anything because depending on how the nests are treated most of the foragers (who will be the runts if they've been produced) won't return into the nest anyway :-(

There are three other factors that come into this as well. One is pattination where individuals within the nest being all clones of each other have the same markings irrespective of size. We don't see this is practice, i.e. the pattination of the lesser variant is slightly different. The other thing which is noteable is that the queens are also small, i.e. smaller in size than the standard 'greater' variant worker wasp. Finally, the size of the brood comb is consistently small which could not accomodate 'larger' wasps in any event.

The lesser variant is no where near as prevalent as the 'greater' variant so it isn't encountered that frequently.

All that said, I don't doubt that runts might be produced if conditions are sufficiently adverse.

 

[tkwinston4]

Anyway, while this is all being mulled over you would have laughed at my wife yesterday evening when we had a barbecue. Special plate for the wasps with tiny crumbs of meat carefully prepared providing a nice 'fly by take away' which they took full advantage of. Incredible just how large a piece of meat they can carry.

Chris

We do that too, saves a lot of hands flapping around dinner plates and wine glasses!!

Not had to do that yet this year tho. Two BBQ's this weekend and not a bug in sight - its very worrying really.

 

[Chris Luck]

Could you answer my questions please with some science that I can get a handle on?

Chris

 

[Chris Luck]

But isn't it right that if you keep brood combs too long, the bees which emerge are smaller? So that's not size being determined by genetics. Or food.

It doesn't work like that because you can't keep the same queen alive for long enough to make a judgement and in fact in my experience even on very old brood comb the bees can still emerge the same size as when the comb was first made. Carrying that theory to its logical conclusion would mean really miniature bees after 10 or 20 years of undisturbed comb which doesn't happen. I think again it's genetic, many breed bees are larger than native bees.

Chris

 

[Karol]

Well Karol that's a lot of words but as you know scientifically and Internationally we use Latin to name species not a mixture of English and Latin, it's the only way to define species so I'm none the wiser and there has to be something more concrete if this is a proven species difference - not, well there are big ones and small ones. It is a subject I concern myself with, (perhaps not as extensively as yourself), especially as I am currently writing a shortish article for publication this Autumn concerning 'wasps' and I really like to get my facts right.

Is there a National Vespidae group of some kind in the UK that you are referring to as "we"?

Chris

I know it's not satisfactory. When I first came into this area I was stunned at the lack of general knowledge surrounding wasps. As a consequence 'we' (i.e. our company) were forced to embark on our own research in many areas. Thankfully, being a science based organisation this was well within our skill set. A lot of what I write on this site about wasps is a consequence of that direct 'cutting edge' research that we have done.

As to defining lesser and greater as separate species then all I would say is that when it comes to wasps things are not as precise as one would expect and there is quite a bit of confusion out there in identifying particular species. A simple example is defining which wasp is the wood wasp. Some say Dolichvespula sylvestris, others say media. More complex is resolving pattination between different species especially because we believe that there is some inter breeding between species giving rise to hybrids.

We don't presently belong to any such groups that have a specific interest in wasps. The starting position I would suggest would have to be somewhere like the Natural History museum or various academic institutions which have specialist entomological interest.

 

[Chris Luck]

Sometimes I loose the will to live.

Why does it matter whether some people call Dolichvespula sylvestris "the wood wasp" and others call Dolichvespula media "the wood wasp" in the UK? They are still what they are as separate species.

To be absolutely frank I think I would rather know who you are, what you do and whether you have published any papers. You talk a good talk but it's a bit thin on actual substance / science for someone at the "cutting edge".

I will do as you suggest and contact the people I know here in Poitiers and Paris, I really find it hard to believe that after a couple of hundred years of entomological study in Europe you could say there is "a lack of general knowledge surrounding wasps", in fact I would have thought there would be a wealth of specialised knowledge.

Chris

 

[Karol]

Sometimes I loose the will to live.

Why does it matter whether some people call Dolichvespula sylvestris "the wood wasp" and others call Dolichvespula media "the wood wasp" in the UK? They are still what they are as separate species.

To be absolutely frank I think I would rather know who you are, what you do and whether you have published any papers. You talk a good talk but it's a bit thin on actual substance / science for someone at the "cutting edge".

I will do as you suggest and contact the people I know here in Poitiers and Paris, I really find it hard to believe that after a couple of hundred years of entomological study in Europe you could say there is "a lack of general knowledge surrounding wasps", in fact I would have thought there would be a wealth of specialised knowledge.

Chris

There is a wealth of specialized knowledge but it is just that - specialized. Very little of it is contextualized i.e. of a general and relevant nature to what we see on the ground on a daily basis. If you get anywhere with Poitiers please do share your findings. Always happy to learn more.

As to who I am and what I do in relation to wasps then I'm constrained by the rules of the forum against advertising. There is nothing sinister it's just that I am here effectively by invitation and don't want to out stay my welcome so I stick to the rules.

As for publishing then I ought to but my day job doesn't give me the time and on a personal level I have no burning ambition to do so despite being asked by lots of people. I do have a number of patents and articles to my name but I don't suppose that really counts as being 'scientific' in the sense that you mean and again, these would fall foul of the advertising rules on the forum.

In any event, I have no agenda other than to share my knowledge for the benefit of forum members who are free to take the information or not as they see fit.

Before I finish, I just thought of another example why we think there is a lesser variant (despite the lack of such bibliographic evidence). Did you know that with nucs queen wasps lay their eggs and then build the rest of the nursery and nest around them? The size of the brood cell for each egg is defined by the queen well before the grub matures and well before the queen has any idea of how much food is going to be available. That is indicative of genetics determining size rather than diet because a grub cannot outgrow its cell.

 

[Chris Luck]

I'm sure you aren't constrained by the forum rules from answering a direct question, other people indicate what their profession is etc. and I could hardly be accused of acting in concert with you or anyone else - conspiracy to advertise.

Could only be pest control or "bee services", unlikely to be the later.

Chris

 

[Karol]

I'm sure you aren't constrained by the forum rules from answering a direct question, other people indicate what their profession is etc. and I could hardly be accused of acting in concert with you or anyone else - conspiracy to advertise.

Could only be pest control or "bee services", unlikely to be the later.

Chris

Neither - I'm a pharmacist by profession.

 

[Chris Luck]

So how could that be advertising unless it's for pest control?



Chris

 

[Karol]

So how could that be advertising unless it's for pest control?



Chris

Pest control is the wrong label. We don't espouse eradication of wasps unless they represent an unacceptable level of risk. Rather we consider the wasp to be an important asset that needs to be 'managed' in a way which preserves future generations from one year to the next whilst at the same time reducing risk to a minimum. Our primary focus is health protection. I just happen to have a soft spot for bees which is why I contribute to this forum and the 'science' in terms of protection is transferrable between the two.

 

[Chris Luck]

I think there are a number of British pest controllers that have a "soft spot" for bees, I know a few that work here in France. They usually still end up killing them though.

No luck yet with Lesser vulgaris but it's early days and a lot of people are on holiday.

Chris