When to start a Baily Combe Change

[EdNewman]

Hi All, I'm planning on doing a Bailey Comb Change this year, purely for replacing the comb rather than disease control.

The colony in question (14x12) seem very healthy, currently they are on about 6-7 frames. I'm a little bit worried that if they draw the comb quickly in the new brood box and I move the queen up I may end up splitting the colony if it gets cold again, or all the brood dies.

Any advice greatly appreciated!

Cheers,
Ed.

 

[beekeeping4you]

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/baileychange.html -(Did someone really ever do it this way?)

...I'm a little bit worried that if they draw the comb quickly in the new brood box and I move the queen up I may end up splitting the colony if it gets cold again, or all the brood dies.

Personally I never tried the 'Bailey' method, we exchange mouldy side frames in spring and put BB with full set of frames and foundation on top of the strongest colonies in May. When cell building has started on the first 3 or four frames we move a frame of brood from the center of the brood nest up, the queen has not to be found, she goes up when the bees tell her to do so. No risk for the queen, the bees or the colony as a whole...

Regards
Reiner

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You first need to wait until it warms up a bit - bees won't draw comb if it's cold, so all you will be doing is doubling the size of the cavity.
Wait until it's a bit warmer - put the new box on top (no QX) give them some syrup and just sit back - the queen will move up there when she's ready and after a week or two there shouldn't be much brood in the bottom box, then put the QX in.

 

[Arfermo]

Too early just yet - mid May depending on weather. Shook swarm more efficient as it gets it over in minutes rather than weeks that the Bailey system takes. That means the bees settle down more quickly. Ideally needs the QE below the lowest BB for a week to stop Q absconding; also warrants a syrup feed to help them out until they can forage well enough for building up stores etc.

 

[REDWOOD]

Too cold yet, when you do decide to do it feed to promote comb building and once they have achieved this the queen will naturally move up and start laying, add QE and once all the brood has emerged the old box can be removed.

 

[EdNewman]

Thanks for the advice all, I shall wait till may. Weather has been lovely here today, got up to 18 degrees where the hives are and the bees were really making the most of it. Long may it last!

Ed.

 

[Swarm]

You could try putting the new box and foundation frames under the existing before swapping them around later.

 

[DanBee]

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/baileychange.html -(Did someone really ever do it this way?)

As Dave Cushman said "My version is a little more fastidious than Bailey's original"

As I understand it, Bailey's comb change was devised specifically for a nosemic colony, which would have been seriously weakened by the disease. Thus any use of foundation would be a no-no - instead freshly drawn comb or fumigated stored drawn comb would have been used. The method is not perfect, but it moves the bees quickly away from the contaminated combs without sacrificing the existing brood or incurring a significant break in laying.

Also note that Bailey mandated the closing of the lower (existing) entrance and introduction of a higher entrance into the upper box - this was to reduce the traffic across the contaminated combs as the colony established itself in the new, clean box. Just adding a box - even of drawn comb - above the existing one is not a Bailey comb change, and does not achieve an "hygienic" change of combs.

Might sound pedantic,. but a lot of people use the terms "comb change", "Bailey comb change" and "shook swarm" interchangeably, apparently assuming that foundation is acceptable provided supplemental feed is given. It might not always be so...

 

[Amari]

As Dave Cushman said "My version is a little more fastidious than Bailey's original"

As I understand it, Bailey's comb change was devised specifically for a nosemic colony, which would have been seriously weakened by the disease. Thus any use of foundation would be a no-no - instead freshly drawn comb or fumigated stored drawn comb would have been used. The method is not perfect, but it moves the bees quickly away from the contaminated combs without sacrificing the existing brood or incurring a significant break in laying.

Also note that Bailey mandated the closing of the lower (existing) entrance and introduction of a higher entrance into the upper box - this was to reduce the traffic across the contaminated combs as the colony established itself in the new, clean box. Just adding a box - even of drawn comb - above the existing one is not a Bailey comb change, and does not achieve an "hygienic" change of combs.

Might sound pedantic,. but a lot of people use the terms "comb change", "Bailey comb change" and "shook swarm" interchangeably, apparently assuming that foundation is acceptable provided supplemental feed is given. It might not always be so...

Yes, yes. I put a brood box of foundation above a Qexcluder above the old BB. One frame of brood with the queen is transferred into the upper (new) BB. I close the lower (original) entrance and the bees quickly learn to enter the new entrance (a hole in an eke) above the QEx. The Q is thus trapped in the new BB and I believe this is thus a method of reducing risk of swarming. After 21 days all the brood in the lower BB has hatched so this box is removed and placed on top of the hive above a porter escape. Result: colony on new comb and old comb can be removed without loss of honey foraging. I haven't needed to give syrup - surely dodgy to feed in May because surely that's when the harvest is coming in?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Yes, yes. I put a brood box of foundation above a Qexcluder above the old BB. One frame of brood with the queen is transferred into the upper (new) BB. I close the lower (original) entrance and the bees quickly learn to enter the new entrance (a hole in an eke) above the QEx. The Q is thus trapped in the new BB and I believe this is thus a method of reducing risk of swarming. After 21 days all the brood in the lower BB has hatched so this box is removed and placed on top of the hive above a porter escape. Result: colony on new comb and old comb can be removed without loss of honey foraging. I haven't needed to give syrup - surely dodgy to feed in May because surely that's when the harvest is coming in?

Sounds more like an upside down demarree!

 

[Amari]

Sorry, I've forgotten what is a Demarree

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Sorry, I've forgotten what is a Demarree

A bit like described below but the queen and new foundation goes on the bottom then QX then brood etc - usual (bottom) entrance used Used as a form of swarm control or for making increase

Yes, yes. I put a brood box of foundation above a Qexcluder above the old BB. One frame of brood with the queen is transferred into the upper (new) BB. I close the lower (original) entrance and the bees quickly learn to enter the new entrance (a hole in an eke) above the QEx. The Q is thus trapped in the new BB and I believe this is thus a method of reducing risk of swarming. After 21 days all the brood in the lower BB has hatched so this box is removed and placed on top of the hive above a porter escape. Result: colony on new comb and old comb can be removed without loss of honey foraging. I haven't needed to give syrup - surely dodgy to feed in May because surely that's when the harvest is coming in?

 

[beekeeping4you]

Yes, yes. I put a brood box of foundation above a Qexcluder above the old BB. One frame of brood with the queen is transferred into the upper (new) BB. I close the lower (original) entrance and the bees quickly learn to enter the new entrance (a hole in an eke) above the QEx. The Q is thus trapped in the new BB and I believe this is thus a method of reducing risk of swarming. After 21 days all the brood in the lower BB has hatched so this box is removed and placed on top of the hive above a porter escape. Result: colony on new comb and old comb can be removed without loss of honey foraging. I haven't needed to give syrup - surely dodgy to feed in May because surely that's when the harvest is coming in?

I can see a bit of 'Snelgrove' is involved too?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Maybe we could christen it the Snelby change?

 

[beekeeping4you]

Hi Amari,
I hope you do not mind the jokes.
You submitted the following description:
"...I put a brood box of foundation above a Queen excluder above the old BB. One frame of brood with the queen is transferred into the upper (new) BB. I close the lower (original) entrance and the bees quickly learn to enter the new entrance (a hole in an eke) above the QEx. The Q is thus trapped in the new BB and I believe this is thus a method of reducing risk of swarming. After 21 days all the brood in the lower BB has hatched so this box is removed and placed on top of the hive above a porter escape. Result: colony on new comb and old comb can be removed without loss of honey foraging."
This is the way to go and you are perfectly right, the element that you added (box over escape board) is a bee friendly improvement. I would recommend your Bailey/Demarre/Snelgrove plan to all beginners...

Regards
Reiner

 

[Amari]

Hi Amari,

This is the way to go and you are perfectly right, the element that you added (box over escape board) is a bee friendly improvement. I would recommend your Bailey/Demarre/Snelgrove plan to all beginners...

Regards
Reiner

Thanks Reiner

 

[Amari]

A bit like described below but the queen and new foundation goes on the bottom then QX then brood etc - usual (bottom) entrance used Used as a form of swarm control or for making increase

Thanks Jenkin.

 

[MrGrumpy]

Wait until it's a bit warmer - put the new box on top (no QX) give them some syrup and just sit back - the queen will move up there when she's ready and after a week or two there shouldn't be much brood in the bottom box, then put the QX in.

I have never found this to work with standard deep boxes. At best, the bees spread the brood nest through both boxes, the queen laying roughly in circles around the new mid point. That's fine if I'm planning to run double-brood, and does seem to expand the nest nice and quick, but I'm not sure it's ideal for frame-changing purposes.

I'm sure you're not wrong, though. So maybe I've just got too much forage nearby for the syrup to tempt them sufficiently upwards. Or, if you're on 14x12, maybe bigger frames help.