When to split?

[bobba]

I have one colony of F1 Bucks. They arrived 1 month ago as a 5 frame nuc.
It is my intention to split them as soon as possible. I hope to eventually reach my target of 3 hives.

I currently have my Bucks in a standard national with dummy board. They have drawn out all but the outside frames. So, I basically have the 5 original frames with lots of capped brood, 4 newly drawn frames with eggs, uncapped, and a little capped. And 2 frames still being drawn.

I am not concerned about getting any honey this year.

The guy I got my bees from has said he can supply me a mated Queen (if he gets enough) for when I split. I intend to make the split using a mated queen (to avoid the risk of F2 aggression).

So; my question, is it too soon to split?

Would I be better off waiting and splitting next spring, or after the autumn flow?

Any advice on how I should best proceed would be appreciated.

Thanks, as always.

 

[coffindodger]

I have no expertise, but I have had success by double brood now and then split in spring.

 

[BMH]

How many frames of brood are they on?

 

[pargyle]

I'd keep them as a single colony .. let them develop into a full hive wilh all frames drawn .. they will need resources to get them through winter and a large colony going into Autumn with plenty of stores of their own honey will have a better winter survival rate than two smaller ones.

Order your new queens for the earliest point you can next spring .. a big colony can be split three ways .. you have the opportunity to get your kit lined up in the winter sales and you are ready to go.

Don't try to run before you can walk.

 

[maddydog]

It's only the 1st of July, plenty of time to build nucs and colonies up for winter. Buy a poly nuc if you haven't got one already. You don't state where you are in the UK but anywhere below 1000m should be fine
Tell your mate you'll have a mated queen off him in two weeks time, by then there should be plenty of resources to make a nuc of 1 frame stores and 2 bias. Keep an eye on them if there is a dearth. The nuc will likely need promoting to a full size hive in no time.
2 hives far easier than one. Stick to one hive over winter and if you lose it you'll not be happy but your mate will

 

[Erichalfbee]

I intend to make the split using a mated queen (to avoid the risk of F2 aggression

I have kept Buckies all my beekeeping life and have never had F2/3/4 aggression
I replace the queens when the bees get too black and production drops off

 

[Ian123]

Not sure if the question is when should you split but more when will the other beek have queens ready. No reason why if you split that hive now you should not have 2 single brood colonies going into winter. Effectively do an artificial swarm leaving old queen and flying bees with Maybe 3 frames frames of brood on site move the remainder off to new spot and introduce queen to a nice lot of young bees, nice and safe. Just maybe avoid in the period main flow finishes in your area. If needed you can add a frame of sealed brood down the line to any smaller half

 

[eltalia]

Add a QX, add a super.
Come fall knock back to a single BC, storing the super.
Apply a broodbreak in those last days of the fall.
Aim being you have a strong young colony backfilled to
the rafters with stores come those nonfly days of early winter.
The stores archived then used in emergency or as impetus
for rebuild come the thaw.
_Maybe_ split well into Spring 2020.
Okay?

Bill

 

[Eyeman]

I have kept Buckies all my beekeeping life and have never had F2/3/4 aggression
I replace the queens when the bees get too black and production drops off

Depends what your local drone population is like and what your definition of aggression is?
I buy in Buckfasts and have reared queens from them which have turned out to be much more aggressive than my local flock. No longer rear queens from those Buckfasts.

 

[bobba]

Thanks everyone.

I welcome the differing ideas and opinions.

When I split, I definitely intend to get a queen of the guy I know. My bees are in my garden, so I see the cost of a queen a small price to pay to lower the chance of F2 aggression.

I have kept Buckies all my beekeeping life and have never had F2/3/4 aggression
I replace the queens when the bees get too black and production drops off

Very interesting, I will probably experiment with making my own queens in the future but will stick to a buying queens to start with.

Tacking all the advice into consideration. I like the sound of the split 3 ways in spring plan. Partly because it gives me the chance to sort out some more equipment.

Supposing I go double brood as soon as they have finished drawing out, probably 1-2 weeks’ time, can I then leave them on double brood over winter?

I figure this would give me a lot of brood frames I can use for a 3-way split in the spring.

 

[Ian123]

Hi boba there is no reason not to acquire a queen now or in the next couple of weeks and split now. An idea of your location would help. If your hive does not make it over winter what are you going to split.!!!!! I make up 5 frame nucs in late sept by simply splitting a single box hive, if done now and with a small but constant feed a 5 frame nuc will easily fill a brood. Locations are a factor but you really have loads of time

 

[bobba]

I am in Hampshire.

 

[Ian123]

Ok so about as mild as it gets and a reasonable chance you have some ivy for late forage more importantly pollen, you can provide the carbs!!. If it’s a week or 2 of getting a queen provide them with a second box if they look crowded. And split as previously described.

 

[pargyle]

Thanks everyone.

I welcome the differing ideas and opinions.

When I split, I definitely intend to get a queen of the guy I know. My bees are in my garden, so I see the cost of a queen a small price to pay to lower the chance of F2 aggression.



Very interesting, I will probably experiment with making my own queens in the future but will stick to a buying queens to start with.

Tacking all the advice into consideration. I like the sound of the split 3 ways in spring plan. Partly because it gives me the chance to sort out some more equipment.

Supposing I go double brood as soon as they have finished drawing out, probably 1-2 weeks’ time, can I then leave them on double brood over winter?

I figure this would give me a lot of brood frames I can use for a 3-way split in the spring.

Yes ... or even just get them to draw as many frames as possible this year and then either leave them on double brood or just reduce to one box if they don't need the space to overwinter and just save the spare frames over winter.. drawn brood frames are a valuable asset. You would need to protect them from wax moth damage over winter .. lots of threads on wax moth on here. You may not even need to go double brood .. just keep swapping a brood frame on the edge of the brood nest which they will draw and then move them out to the edge. If they fill them with honey even better.

 

[maddydog]

I need to reread this thread, could have sworn it started with split asap now it's moved on to honey and as much drawn comb as possible

 

[eltalia]

I need to reread this thread, could have sworn it started with split asap now it's moved on to honey and as much drawn comb as possible

Indeed... no prize then for guessing why it is many a newcomer ends
up with a yard of inconsistency, many either dead or heading for the
trees - "0h but I read it on the Internet".
Back when we ran our rescue service - mainly for FloHive newbies - we
heard the 'excuse' pretty much in every case.

/rollseyes/

Bill

 

[Erichalfbee]

Back when we ran our rescue service - mainly for FloHive newbies -

/rollseyes/

Bill

Are you still on the Flow hive forum?
I thought they chucked you off?

 

[eltalia]

Are you still on the Flow hive forum?
I thought they chucked you off?

0h indeed... I am in a group of what has to be hundreds at least.
Jeff hangs in there for his own reasons, more than a little eccentric
in my view buut a hellava good bloke.
That web forum today is a shambles... rarely worth a post, natural
attrition will get the message home, one day.

/smiles/

Bill

 

[bobba]

I need to reread this thread, could have sworn it started with split asap now it's moved on to honey and as much drawn comb as possible

You may laugh. But I am very happy with the variety of advice I have been given.

Yes it is a bit confusing for a noob, and life would be simpler if everyone gave consistent advice. But I feel the variety of offerings gives me more options to consider. It also encourages me to go away and read up on more topics.

And to be blunt - if inconstant advice bothers you, then perhaps an internet forum with a bunch of random contributors is not the best place for you to ask. But I appreciate why you think it is funny.

And as I said before I am thankful to anyone who has tried to help me.

I am thinking that I will add a second brood box, probably next week. Then reconsider my options when/if my contact has a queen available.

I am not bothered about any honey this year, but think getting some extra brood frames drawn out will be advantages.

Thanks for the heads up on storing frames - so can you guys tell me 20 different ways I might go about storing them? I heard the best way to store frames was in a ceder box with some worker bees and one queen bee.

Luckily storing frames is one topic that is actually quite well covered in the books I have read. I have read a lot about different methods of splitting a hive too, but they never seem to talk about when to do it. my other gripe is all the books I have read talk about when there is a "flow on". But none tell you how to tell if there is currently a "flow on" or not.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Flow
Look around. What’s blooming. Bramble rosebay and Balsam right now
Good weather.
Bees are busy. They fly out of the entrance purposely not stopping
The hives sound like air conditioners in the evening