When to change out old frames?

[Erichalfbee]

Debunk link to make us think?

Post 15

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Tom Seeley has also done work on this (in fact when asked the question about small cells out in Antrim last year he just laughed) and there is another paper floating around somewhere - and don't start Murray McGregor on the subject!!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/small-cell-foundation.51201/post-783145
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/treatment-free.43357/page-19#post-721191

 

[Patrick1]

It's a myth - debunked so many times but still gets dragged out with tiring regularity

What is the point in just dismissing someone’s comments, are you a member of the BBKA or something…..their way or no way, debate is good isn’t it, or is that below you !!!

If you respond in that manner you should at the verry least backup what you have to say otherwise it is pointless commenting.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

What is the point in just dismissing someone’s comments, are you a member of the BBKA or something…..their way or no way, debate is good isn’t it, or is that below you !!!

If you respond in that manner you should at the verry least backup what you have to say otherwise it is pointless commenting.

Have a look at the preceding post - since you are too lazy to look back a week I've done it for you
But as for your last post - some comments just deserve contempt.

 

[rolande]

I am sure I have read somewhere that old brood produces smaller bees, it seems to be logical if all the cocoons from multiple brood periods are left in the cell it must get smaller, that doesn’t take into account the health side.

I don't have a valid link to the paper but Jennifer Berry and Keith Delaplane did a 3 year study on this and reported decreased weight (and some other metrics) of bees raised in old comb compared to new.

 

[Murox]

I don't have a valid link to the paper but Jennifer Berry and Keith Delaplane did a 3 year study on this and reported decreased weight (and some other metrics) of bees raised in old comb compared to new.

Would be useful to know which of their papers it was, and how long ago the americans wrote it ?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I don't have a valid link to the paper but Jennifer Berry and Keith Delaplane did a 3 year study on this and reported decreased weight (and some other metrics) of bees raised in old comb compared to new.

Would be useful to know which of their papers it was, and how long ago the americans wrote it ?

2009 - the title of the paper reads

Small-cell comb foundation does not impede Varroa mite population growth in honey bee colonies

And part of the conclusions state

However, small-cell colonies were significantly higher for mite population in brood (359.7 ± 87.4 vs. 134.5 ± 38.7), percentage of mite population in brood (49.4 ± 7.1 vs. 26.8 ± 6.7), and mites per 100 adult bees (5.1 ± 0.9 vs. 3.3 ± 0.5). With the three remaining ending Varroa population metrics, mean trends for small-cell were unfavorable. We conclude that small-cell comb technology does not impede Varroa population growth.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

That was the wrong study, sorry

I don't have a valid link to the paper but Jennifer Berry and Keith Delaplane did a 3 year study on this and reported decreased weight (and some other metrics) of bees raised in old comb compared to new.

The study @rolande is thinking of was in 2000, it didn't state that the bees on old comb suffered decreased weight what they found/they imply is that each old comb held fewer bees;

colonies with new comb produced a greater area (cm 2) of brood, a greater area (cm 2) of sealed brood, and a higher weight of individual young bees (mg).

But what is more interesting in my view is

Brood survivorship was the only variable significantly higher in old comb.

 

[rolande]

Ive not read the paper myself so don't know the full details.

The following contains a quote from the paper which Bob Binney included in a Bee Culture article:

Additionally, the cell diameter in old, heavy, black, brood comb can shrink from an accumulation of these materials along with fecal matter and cocoon silk left behind by each emerging bee. In a three-year field study at the University of Georgia, Jennifer Berry compared new comb to old, dark, heavy comb for brood rearing.¹ It was shown that, “On average, colonies with new comb produced a greater area of brood, a greater area of sealed brood, and higher weight of individual young bees.” Also, “Bees reared in old comb may weigh up to 19% less than bees reared in new comb” (Berry, 2001).

Bee Culture:
Why comb rotation is important by Bob Binney.
NOVEMBER 20, 2019

 

[rolande]

Not so busy this morning so I had a look for the study:



https://bees.caes.uga.edu/content/d.../about-us/jennifer-berry/effects_comb_age.pdf

 

[Erichalfbee]

]

In our Study bees reared in new comb weighed about 8.3% more than those reared in old comb, which is similar to Abdellitif’s (1965) finding that worker bees reared in old comb in which 70 generations had been reared have an 8% reduction in body weight

That's very interesting, thank you. I shall stop quoting Cushman's article saying old comb makes no difference.
Mind you 70 generations..... 6 years?

 

[rolande]

]

That's very interesting, thank you. I shall stop quoting Cushman's article saying old comb makes no difference.
Mind you 70 generations..... 6 years?

I spent years not only quoting Manley on this subject but actively following his advice - it was easy with the combs that John Rawson's bees were on when I purchased some of them!

I freely admit that I'm still reticent to destroy nice old comb (old habits do die hard) but I force myself to get it out of the system now because I have to do one thing or the other and I've chosen the regular(ish) replacement route.