When to add a Super?

[Boston Bees]

So how would you establish the ‘strain’....

DNA test? To be honest, best to just keep life simple and just forget about trying to identify bee species. You certainly can't just by looking at them. What you have is almost certainly a hybrid/mongrel, just like all of mine are (I would imagine) and most other people's.

I’ve been told by a few people that ‘local bees’ are usually dark coloured.

What, though, do you or they mean by a "local bee"? That's the question.

 

[Do224]

What, though, do you or they mean by a "local bee"? That's the question.

In my mind I’m thinking ‘local bees’ are probably dark coloured wild bees from the local woods...and yellow stripy bees are probably managed bees from a local apiary I expect this is rather off the mark though!

 

[Boston Bees]

In my mind I’m thinking ‘local bees’ are probably dark coloured wild bees from the local woods...and yellow stripy bees are probably managed bees from a local apiary I expect this is rather off the mark though!

Where do you think the bees in your local woods came from? The answer in most cases is - swarms out of managed hives. And where did your "managed" bees come from? Swarms, possibly from the local woods. So, no, they are all mixed up together.

 

[pargyle]

So how would you establish the ‘strain’....would you literally have to know the family tree of the queen?

I’ve been told by a few people that ‘local bees’ are usually dark coloured. Is this just one of these myths that gets repeated far too often?

Local bees are whatever mix of drones mates with the virgin queen ... if there are predominantly small black bees in an area you will get small black bees from your mated queen when she starts laying. But... the reality is that we have been importing all sorts of bees into the UK for the last century, the IOW disease in the early 1900's wiped out vast numbers of our native AMM colonies and bee breeders have been producing hybrids like the Buckfast bees ever since ...

So .. with open mated queens of your own making it's very much a case of pot luck ... local bees are what they are - some are small black bees .. some are stripey and some are very yellow ... As each open mated queen will mate with 15 - 20 drones she could produce a mix of all of them - crossed with her own genes - whatever they may be.

Most bee breeders and queen sellers will sell you a queen with some lineage behind her .. a Buckfast or a pure Carnie and even AMM's ... they will all have been bred to ensure that the queens they sell will produce bees of a similar lineage.

To answer your two questions ... Yes, if you want to know the strain of bee in your apiary without expensive DNA testing or the less reliable wing morphology method you would have to know the lineage of the queen and all the drones she has mated with - impossible unless you have a closed and remote mating station or the queen is artificially inseminated.

And yes ... in most cases it is a myth that local bees are small black bees - in some areas they can be but not all.

 

[pargyle]

In my mind I’m thinking ‘local bees’ are probably dark coloured wild bees from the local woods...and yellow stripy bees are probably managed bees from a local apiary I expect this is rather off the mark though!

Yes .. it's wildly off the mark ... our bee stocks in most of the UK (with a few exceptions) are largely just mongrels of whatever bees there are around you. The queen, when she is allowed to freely open mate will just mate with those drones that can fly highest and fastest ... whichever they may be. They are going to be a mix of drones from whatever colonies are living wild in the area and drones from managed hives in the area in any ratio ...

 

[Curly green finger's]

It is indeed a balancing act, this year many a colony has swarmed before they have even filled the brood box.

Second that it's happened to me.

 

[oliver90owner]

So in your opinion standard national brood boxes are obsolete?

I don’t know if it makes any difference but I’m in north Cumbria...when I was buying my hives I asked my local association about 14x12 boxes and they said no-one uses them up here as they’re too much space for the bees to keep warm in winter.

Do most who still use standard nationals deal with the spring/summer space issues by using the demaree method?

I’m still trying to get my head around the demaree but that’s probably a topic for a separate thread

A 14 x12 brood box is the same footprint as any other BS National hive. Whoever told you that carp obviously does not do a great deal of thinking. The bees move up as the stores are depleted, so by springtime they may be at the upper part of the box. The coldest part of the hive will be below the cluster, whether a deep or extra-deep box. They may need to consume a little more stores earlier in the winter, but that is all. Proper insulation is a more important issue. Also, they don’t need more than a single box, for over-wintering. That ‘upper space’ would be equivalent to much less than an extra shallow, full of stores.

Regarding those who use deeps for brood, most would either go to a brood and a half or double brood - depending on how she lays (queen, weather and forage dependent). Demaree is likely the choice of a minority.

I only used a demaree as a means of producing a few good queen cells (for splitting strong colonies as and when required).

 

[Do224]

A 14 x12 brood box is the same footprint as any other BS National hive. Whoever told you that carp obviously does not do a great deal of thinking. The bees move up as the stores are depleted, so by springtime they may be at the upper part of the box. The coldest part of the hive will be below the cluster, whether a deep or extra-deep box. They may need to consume a little more stores earlier in the winter, but that is all. Proper insulation is a more important issue. Also, they don’t need more than a single box, for over-wintering. That ‘upper space’ would be equivalent to much less than an extra shallow, full of stores.

Regarding those who use deeps for brood, most would either go to a brood and a half or double brood - depending on how she lays (queen, weather and forage dependent). Demaree is likely the choice of a minority.

I only used a demaree as a means of producing a few good queen cells (for splitting strong colonies as and when required).

Thanks. So, if I’m getting this right...I think what you are saying is the best way to manage a standard national hive throughout the year is to go to brood and a half or double brood during the spring/summer and then condense back to single brood for winter each year?

And use demaree only in special circumstances?

 

[Erichalfbee]

No. RAB is saying what most do.
Some go on to 14x12. I did after my first season.
As for Demaree. It’s my preferred proactive method of swarm management

 

[drex]

I do not like 14x12 as I find the frames to deep and unwieldy. I use double brood ( BS deep) all year round. I keep top insulation under the roof all year round. I like double brood as it gives me the flexibility to swap boxes or frames round. Rarely do I have problems with stores over winter or winter losses.

 

[Do224]

I do not like 14x12 as I find the frames to deep and unwieldy. I use double brood ( BS deep) all year round. I keep top insulation under the roof all year round. I like double brood as it gives me the flexibility to swap boxes or frames round. Rarely do I have problems with stores over winter or winter losses.

Do you find the bees are less prone to swarming as a result, especially in the spring?

 

[drex]

Yes, swapping boxes over can be a good way of delaying swarm preps

 

[Do224]

Yes, swapping boxes over can be a good way of delaying swarm preps

How do you mean swapping them over...literally just putting the top one under the bottom one?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Yes

careful - some on here get all unnecessary at one word answers

 

[Erichalfbee]

I know. I thought I might get away with it

 

[victor meldrew]

I know. I thought I might get away with it

Your answer was perfectly adequate as we both know !. Affirming a previous answer ?

 

[Hachi]

I outlined what I thought the cause might be in my post...

You post indicated to me you need to understand why they swarm, space being only one possibility......

 

[Do224]

You post indicated to me you need to understand why they swarm, space being only one possibility......

Which is exactly what I said...

What causes the bees to swarm when they still have plenty space....is it just that the sudden abundance of forage and warm weather triggers the swarming instinct?

Don’t worry about it, I had a very helpful and informative response from @pargyle

Who knows ... there's no hard and fast rule ...

1. Abundance of forage
2. Weather
3. Bee's genetics (some bees seem to swarm more readily than others)
4. Space to lay
5. Space for stores
6. Presence of Drones
7. Colony size
8. Inclination

Perm any two or three from seven and you have the makings of a swarm but the reality is that you just never know ..