When to add a Super?

[Digestive]

Having received a nuc (4 frames) a few weeks ago…we added these to a brood box with an additional 6 frames of foundation.

Having kept an eye on the colony, there is now lots of capped brood, eggs and larvae on the 4 frames and comb being drawn on the frames on either side of these…but we’ve noticed there is now one side of a frame (next to the 4frames of brood) which is full of capped honey (no eggs etc)….

The question is….do we add a super, given there are still frames with only foundation in (we have apilife var treatment in the brood box)?

 

[drex]

Move the frames containing honey out one, then slip a frame of foundation in next to last frame of brood. You can do this on both sides of the brood.
Your colony is still actually small. I would add a super when you have 8 frames of brood

 

[Digestive]

Thanks, given the new colony, we want to give them as good start as possible this year so wasn’t sure if we need to give them room for brood by adding the super

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Move the frames containing honey out one, then slip a frame of foundation in next to last frame of brood. You can do this on both sides of the brood.
Your colony is still actually small. I would add a super when you have 8 frames of brood

although you will find out in time that beekeeping by numbers doesn't always work, with a new colony (and new beekeeper) building up, you really want them to have drawn out all the foundation and be on seven to eight frames full of brood before chucking a super on

 

[drex]

Beekeeping is a balancing act. You do not want to give them too much space, as keeping it warm will waste their energy ( not so important in summer) , but at same time do not want to cramp their style. Similar balancing act for feeding. You will get a feel for it in time

 

[Swarm]

It is indeed a balancing act, this year many a colony has swarmed before they have even filled the brood box.

 

[Do224]

It is indeed a balancing act, this year many a colony has swarmed before they have even filled the brood box.

What causes the bees to swarm when they still have plenty space....is it just that the sudden abundance of forage and warm weather triggers the swarming instinct?

 

[Hachi]

What causes the bees to swarm when they still have plenty space....is it just that the sudden abundance of forage and warm weather triggers the swarming instinct?

Why do you think they swarm?

 

[Do224]

What causes the bees to swarm when they still have plenty space....is it just that the sudden abundance of forage and warm weather triggers the swarming instinct?

Why do you think they swarm?

I outlined what I thought the cause might be in my post...

 

[drex]

What causes the bees to swarm when they still have plenty space....is it just that the sudden abundance of forage and warm weather triggers the swarming instinct?

Colonies reproduce ( a basic instinct) by swarming and when they feel strong enough ( with a high density of bees) and conditions are right, they swarm. Some more than others.
If caught early enough, increasing space reduces bee density and might delay swarming

 

[madasafish]

Colonies also swarm -allegedly with older Qs - so younger Qs may be better.

I experimented this year by stopping all inspections from start June. I added a super when two frames of bees appeared in the prior added super (placed on top of the prior one to that.) 4 out of 6 production hives have new (2020) queens.

So with jumbo brood boxes and at least one super empty at all times and 2020 Queens I have had zero swarming ( crosses fingers) so far.. Hives with older Qs have not swarmed either.

If you are in a National hive with one Brood box and nothing else below a QE, that is far too small for most modern bees and they will swarm as not enough room to lay.

You MUST also pre-empt by creating space: once cramped for any period of time, they will get the urge - and that happens at LEAST 1 week before the hive swarms.

And some bees are swarmy.. Requeen with better..if you know of any better.

 

[Do224]

If you are in a National hive with one Brood box and nothing else below a QE, that is far too small for most modern bees and they will swarm as not enough room to lay.

So in your opinion standard national brood boxes are obsolete?

I don’t know if it makes any difference but I’m in north Cumbria...when I was buying my hives I asked my local association about 14x12 boxes and they said no-one uses them up here as they’re too much space for the bees to keep warm in winter.

Do most who still use standard nationals deal with the spring/summer space issues by using the demaree method?

I’m still trying to get my head around the demaree but that’s probably a topic for a separate thread

 

[The Poot]

So in your opinion standard national brood boxes are obsolete?

I don’t know if it makes any difference but I’m in north Cumbria...when I was buying my hives I asked my local association about 14x12 boxes and they said no-one uses them up here as they’re too much space for the bees to keep warm in winter.

Do most who still use standard nationals deal with the spring/summer space issues by using the demaree method?

I’m still trying to get my head around the demaree but that’s probably a topic for a separate thread

Some demaree, some don’t. Some double brood to give ample space for Summer, then reduce to single for Winter.

 

[drdrday]

So in your opinion standard national brood boxes are obsolete?
...
Do most who still use standard nationals deal with the spring/summer space issues by using the demaree method?

Nope, standard national brood boxes are still very popular! Whilst it's true that a lot of strains of bees can outgrow a standard box that doesn't mean you can't use them.
My two main hives stay on double brood boxes all year round. During the winter I tend to use Kingspan dummy boards to reduce the space a little (to 8 or 9 frames per box) and provide extra insulation. I also have a couple of slabs of Kingspan under the roof so my bees have no problem keeping both boxes warm throughout the winter. In the spring, as soon as the bees start building up I can pull out the insulated dummies as and when they need more room.

14 x 12 boxes make a lot of sense for big colonies if you just consider their size, but personally I find the frames a bit too big to handle comfortably and the boxes a bit too heavy. I also like the versatility I get from a double brood.

I was planning to try a demaree this year (my third), but unfortunately, as often seems to be the case, the weather and the bees conspired against me - maybe things will be different next year!

You must never forget that swarming is perfectly natural - there's something wrong with a colony of bees that never wants to swarm. We'll never control it completely, we just do our best to put the bees off for as long as we can! Or try to minimise the effects when they do swarm.

 

[Do224]

Nope, standard national brood boxes are still very popular! Whilst it's true that a lot of strains of bees can outgrow a standard box that doesn't mean you can't use them.

My bees are quite dark coloured. Would I be right in thinking they’re likely to be a less prolific variety of bees than say buckfasts or Italian strains?

They were swarms (all look the same) so no idea where they came from.

 

[pargyle]

What causes the bees to swarm when they still have plenty space....is it just that the sudden abundance of forage and warm weather triggers the swarming instinct?

Who knows ... there's no hard and fast rule ...

1. Abundance of forage
2. Weather
3. Bee's genetics (some bees seem to swarm more readily than others)
4. Space to lay
5. Space for stores
6. Presence of Drones
7. Colony size
8. Inclination

Perm any two or three from seven and you have the makings of a swarm but the reality is that you just never know ..

 

[user 819]

Nothing wrong with BS deep BB, one has to judge/ read the bees to give extra space before it is needed when they build up in spring and reduce if need be in late Autumn.

 

[pargyle]

My bees are quite dark coloured. Would I be right in thinking they’re likely to be a less prolific variety of bees than say buckfasts or Italian strains?

They were swarms (all look the same) so no idea where they came from.

View attachment 27142

Nope ... you can't assume anything from the colour ...

 

[user 819]

My last colony not to show any signs of swarming did so today as soon as the sun came out out for 3/4's of an hour and suddenly warmed up.
I only inspected them 6 days ago so decided to use the gap in the rain to look at them, as I arrived I could hear them.
Q is clipped so if she went couldn't go far, found her on a frame looking very slim (have a feeling they left but she didn't) and placed in a nuc with two brood, two drawn and 1.5 food and shook in two more frames of bees.
Checked whole colony and found just two QC with 3/4 day old larvae.

 

[Do224]

Nope ... you can't assume anything from the colour ...

So how would you establish the ‘strain’....would you literally have to know the family tree of the queen?

I’ve been told by a few people that ‘local bees’ are usually dark coloured. Is this just one of these myths that gets repeated far too often?