When should I switch from feeding syrup to fondant?

[BeeKeyPlayer]

I agree ... i think isolation starvation is often a misnomer for a weak or small colony in a box that is too large for them to heat in winter - good insulated boxes will allow even smaller colonies to move - they may cluster when the outside temperature is very cold but a warm hive is part of the solution to the problem.

I'm not really disagreeing but of course the bees don't heat the hive, just the cluster. There is a big difference between the temperature at the centre and the outside of the cluster, and the space beyond that is much cooler still (in cold weather). That is not to deny that a strong colony will be able to generate more heat which will allow the bees to move further away from the cluster to reach stores - and reduce the risk of isolation starvation (or whatever you want to call it ).

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'm not really disagreeing but of course the bees don't heat the hive, just the cluster. There is a big difference between the temperature at the centre and the outside of the cluster, and the space beyond that is much cooler still (in cold weather). That is not to deny that a strong colony will be able to generate more heat which will allow the bees to move further away from the cluster to reach stores - and reduce the risk of isolation starvation (or whatever you want to call it ).

The bees may not heat the hive but the cluster loses heat to its surroundings. It takes more energy to keep alive in a cluster than to keep active in winter. Bees in my poly hives are still walking around the top bars all winter unless it gets very cold and even then the cluster is a loose one

 

[pargyle]

Most of the time, I avoid all of the above by leaving the bees enough honey.
The bees are still out foraging here in South Wales, so it very much depends where your bees are living.
However, we are still feeding syrup to a lighter colony as they are still foraging and even bringing in pollen (in the rain)!

It makes little odds how much honey you leave them ... a small colony in a cold hve will tend to cluster in the middle of the hive ... if they don't have sufficient mass to keep themselves warm they will stay on the combs that they are on and even if there are stores (honey or syrup or fondant) in adjacent frames (or even above in the case of tubs of fondant and they won't move to reach the food. As has been said .. the key to avoiding what is sometimes termed isolation starvation is a strong colony, in the right size box for their size and enough insulation to keep them toasty.

I used to worry overwintering colonies in my long deep hive. I used to ensure that all the frames of stores were to one side of the brood nest so that, in theory, they would always eat their way through it in one direction. However, it's a highly insulated hive and once I had fitted clear crownboards I was able to see that the bees moved freely about the frames even in the middle of winter. I seal the crownboards to the top of the hive with aluminium tape and with insulation in the roof space there is always a lot of heat within the hive and never any sign of them not being able to access stores. They do seem to work their way through the frames of stores from one end to the other though.

 

[Swarm]

My bee love a dummied double brood set up.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The bees may not heat the hive but the cluster loses heat to its surroundings. It takes more energy to keep alive in a cluster than to keep active in winter. Bees in my poly hives are still walking around the top bars all winter unless it gets very cold and even then the cluster is a loose one

there is still a belief in this myth that heat travels no further than the actual cluster in a cavernous cold hive (anotherWedmoreism)

 

[gmonag]

there is still a belief in this myth that heat travels no further than the actual cluster in a cavernous cold hive (anotherWedmoreism)

Then why not refute the myth?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Then why not refute the myth?

you don't think most of us haven't tried? in the end, the mantra chanters jut ignore science and carry on with the same old same.

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

It takes more energy to keep alive in a cluster than to keep active in winter.

That I didn't know. Stupid question perhaps but why do they cluster rather than keep active, then?

 

[gmonag]

So there is no proof that it is a myth?

 

[Erichalfbee]

That I didn't know. Stupid question perhaps but why do they cluster rather than keep active, then?

Because they are cold.
In a well insulated hive the ambient temperature has to be much lower to make them cold

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

So there is no proof that it is a myth?

plenty of proof out there - if you want it, go and look.
Never been a fan of sealions

 

[gmonag]

.. in the end, the mantra chanters jut ignore science and carry on with the same old same.

I don't want to go out and look, I want you to justify your statement, " there is still a belief in this myth that heat travels no further than the actual cluster in a cavernous cold hive (anotherWedmoreism) ".
Not sure what sealions have to do with anything here.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I don't want to go out and look, I want you to justify your statement, " there is still a belief in this myth that heat travels no further than the actual cluster in a cavernous cold hive (anotherWedmoreism) ".
Not sure what sealions have to do with anything here.

There's a lot of stuff about heat movement in a winter cluster here
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/understanding-colony-buildup-and-decline-part-13a/

 

[Erichalfbee]

This is from Randy too

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

there is still a belief in this myth that heat travels no further than the actual cluster in a cavernous cold hive (anotherWedmoreism)

Sorry, Wedmoreism?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Sorry, Wedmoreism?

EB Wedmore, beekeeper in the 1930's and 40's great believer in maintaining a roaring gale going through his hives.

 

[pargyle]

I don't want to go out and look, I want you to justify your statement, " there is still a belief in this myth that heat travels no further than the actual cluster in a cavernous cold hive (anotherWedmoreism) ".
Not sure what sealions have to do with anything here.

It's pretty basic physics isn't it ? Unless you think the bees can provide an insulated layer at the periphery of the cluster then the heat they generate, just by the laws of phyics, must dissipate into the rest of the hive outside the cluster.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Sorry, Wedmoreism?

This is an extract from Dave Cushman's site

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/ventilation.html

Wedmore wrote a book "The Ventilation of Beehives". He made many errors in his book simply because he had decided on the answer before doing the experimental work. He proposed the adoption, and deliberate inclusion of top ventilation by match sticks being placed under crown boards, leaving feed holes open, I am not sure whether he mentioned upper entrances, but they fall into the same category.

And this his book....widely available

 

[thorn]

Trying to be mind numbingly accurate when trying to weigh bees with scales is a lot of faffing therefore hefting can provide a rough order of magnitude to the amount of stores a hive probably has at the point of hefting. Doing it regularly with your own bees and eqpt configuration you should notice hives getting lighter in weight as the bees devour their stores through the winter. The earlier in the winter they are getting lighter indicates the need for action. i.e putting fondant on. Some hives will take longer to consume stores the fondant goes on later its as simple as that. There will be those that come along and like to try and accurately weigh and thats up to them. Me, I prefer to be more productive with my time like others on here.

KISS... The objective is to calculate hive weight so as to identify when you need to feed to stop your bees starving........ simples.

To heft and remember how each felt last time when I've nine hives to check and only do it once every two to three weeks is certainly beyond my limited ability. I can check a hive using the luggage scales and write the weight in my little blue book in less than a minute. Even more "simples" than hefting, and more accurate. KISS, Hachi.

 

[Antipodes]

Michael Palmer posted this on the forum last year under the topic "Weighing Bee Hives".