When should I add a super

[PW63]

Hi

I am new to beekeeping so please forgive me if I am asking something stupid. I have a WBC hive containing a brood chamber with a see-through perspex lid, containing a colony which I obtained locally in May this year. I fed them several times during June due to the poor weather. The colony appears to have expanded to all but the end-most frames over the last couple of days I have noticed that a number of bees seem to permanently congregate on the ledge just outside the entrance to the hive, even at night. Is this because the hive is becoming too crowded and I need to add a super? But then why haven't they filled the end frames? I have attached a photo which was taken today at 15:00 during fine weather whilst may of the bees are out foraging. Any advice would be gratefully received.

Also is it correct that I should add the first super without the queen excluder, and when that is fully drawn-out add the excluder and a second super? This is the advice given in the book I am using, however the person who supplied the colony said that I could add the excluder and super and harvest some honey this year if the colony did well enough.

This is my second attempt at bee-keeping, having first obtained a colony two years ago which did not survive the winter (not sure exactly why).

 

[Ely]

I have been advised in the past that you can super on around 7/8 frames of brood. It is not crucial to not use the excluder at first. I put mine on straight away but it is something you can do if they are reluctant to move up into the super and draw the frames. A light spray of syrup can also incourage them which would be easier than taking the hive apart to add an excluder. It is also getting a little late in the season but due to the bad weather, and now the good weather, you might still be able to take advantage of a flow.

 

[susbees]

Firstly how many frames of brood does the hive have? Then we can help. And welcome.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[meidel]

The advice from Maggie Hendry in one of the bee magazines was to put a super on when the bees have filled at least 8 frames with brood.

I've found that if there's a flow on the bees will draw comb even with a queen excluder on. I know that in one of the rivendale apiculture websites there was an old guy who recommended putting on 4 supers at once on 1st April come what may! But he meant drawn supers. He recommended applying a super without QEx if you didn't have drawn frames first. We're currently experimenting with this ie sans QEx with one of the colonies - it was without a queen for about 3 weeks and we're going to check in a couple of weeks the state of things - super, eggs, etc... as the queen there must've emerged around the 19th or 20th last week. But there is a flow on at the moment ...

 

[Swarm]

You can shuffle the frames to encourage the bees to draw out those end ones. How many frames are brood and how many are stores?
Looking at the photo, I would give them a super as well, above an excluder.

You may have comments about the feeder hole being open

 

[Hebeegeebee]

With warm weather and good forage (In Norfolk anyway), bees outside the hive may be fanning to cool or evaporate depending on the time of day. Last night my apiary sounded like a little air conditioning plant as all the hives were busy fanning to reduce the moisture content of the honey gathered.

If the weather and forage hold, then a super is not a bad idea - assuming you have 6 - 7 frames of brood.
If you don't use a queen excluder that will make the bees happier about drawing comb above them as sometimes they are reluctant to go through it when there's just foundation above. However once they have started to draw comb, a queen excluder should be put between super and brood box otherwise the queen may lay in the super*. Ensure that she's downstairs before-hand of course.
Once some of the foundation has been started, the bees will continue to draw it as they need.

Well. I'll comment about the open feed-hole. And the plastic crown board. My personal view is that the colony will lose heat with a hole above their heads and the plastic is a poor insulator in any case. If you want to keep the plastic, block off the feed-hole and place a wooden crown-board over the top. This can simply be lifted off IF you need to inspect*. WBC's are not always wasp-proof - a small gap around the batten on each lift is a good entry point for example. A hole in the crown board is a good place for wasps to attack.

* Weekly inspections should be all that's required.

 

[oliver90owner]

The single most important thing I found early on, when I started with WBCs, was brood box space. A good colony will need all the brood box for brooding and quite likely more.

That was one reason why so many used to run broods and halves in the long distant past.

A super over the brood looks fairly imminent as the brace comb (with honey?) would indicate a shortage of space. Eight frames of brood is a good pointer for a National with11 frames (or likely 12 Hoffmans).

I advise you to cover that gaping hole in the crownboard - they don't need it and don't want it. If you are not sure, cover it with some gauze and let the bees decide. The hole is there for either placing a feeder over or for using the cover as a clearer board (a poor one with just the one hole).

It is not correct that you need to leave off the Q/E when supering.

 

[MandF]

Re: open feed holes (in summer)

Might be worth having a read of this thread and making your own mind up http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=19298

or, as for the question of letting the bees decide, this thread http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=19298

 

[itma]

...
I advise you to cover that gaping hole in the crownboard ...

It is not correct that you need to leave off the Q/E when supering.

Getting your very first ever shallow frames drawn can (sometimes) be tricky.
If supering, one thing that may help is covering that hole. I doubt it has a great affect on the temperature for wax-making, but it must help retain colony pheromones, helping the bees to recognise that even "up there", its still part of their home and that they should get on with furnishing it.
Putting the shallow under the brood (just to start with) may be the most certain way of helping the bees get on with drawing out the frames. But reconfiguring the hive twice can be a bit of a faff, and would have been best started a few weeks ago.


RAB is of course right that you don't need to start without the QX, but sometimes withdrawing it can be associated with them finally 'going up'. So some might think that you'd improve your chances of them going up without delay if you withheld the QX until they have at least started drawing the shallow frames.
If there is a delay, the brood box will quickly become congested and the risk of swarming increases.
Just remember that anytime you do fit a QX, you should be sure that HMQ is on the right side of it!

 

[oliver90owner]

PW63

Re feed holes aka gaping holes in crownboard.

I will PM you to 'educate you' on this topic.

 

[MandF]

Im sure they can read the threads I pointed to and make their own minds up?

 

[Poly Hive]

I am going to be honest in as gentle a way as I can.

You mention failing first time around. OK.

You are asking for advice based it seems on merely observation from above.

Have you actually been into the bees at all? As the others have said the strength of a colony is judged by frames of brood and the norm is supering on 8.

I (because I run bees for comb honey) ALWAYS give foundation, and foundation only and I ALWAYS use an excluder as no one wants brown cut comb or worse with brood in it. So there are no worries in putting an excluder on with foundation, if it is of decent quality and the bees are strong enough they get on with it no bother.

PH

 

[scuttlefish]

I've never used WBCs so this might well be a stupid question, but if you leave an open hole in the crown/cover/feeder/whatever board of a double-walled hive, won't the bees expand out into the lifts?

 

[MandF]

PW63,

Also, if as ITMA suggests it could be a pheramone issue (you will see now that actually very little is known as to why sometimes bees do not draw out foundation when we would like!), do you have a wide open entrance? That could be letting the pheramones flood out.

In nature you will notice honeybees prefer a small entrance when choosing their new home, and if you are of a mind that bees know best (see my "thinking" thread) then you would want to reduce your entrance accordingly.

 

[Ely]

Re: open feed holes (in summer)

Might be worth having a read of this thread and making your own mind up http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=19298

or, as for the question of letting the bees decide, this thread http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=19298

You're taking the P a bit now aren't you dude. The OP doesn't want confusing with that guff.

 

[MandF]

I've never used WBCs so this might well be a stupid question, but if you leave an open hole in the crown/cover/feeder/whatever board of a double-walled hive, won't the bees expand out into the lifts?

I am pretty sure bees determine what is "inside" and "outside" their hive based on pheromones, and have personally never had a problem with bees expanding into the roof space if and when I leave a feed hole (or two) open - so if it is pheromones then there is still a big enough difference under/over for them to recognise it as outside (if determined by differential) or simply not a strong enough concentration outside (if determined by levels).

I have also never had any problem getting foundation drawn if and when leaving feed holes open, so I also do not think leaving them open reduces the amount of pheromones at the top of a hive sufficient for them to not want to draw foundation or see it as "home".

However, as ITMA says, if they want to try this, by all means do so - I can only speak from my own experience, which may be determined by other factors such as microclimate compared with the OP or others who find closing feed holes gets foundation drawn when it otherwise isnt.

I personally think there is something more complex going on inside the hive than simple 'reluctance' to move through an excluder, or pheromone levels, for example, and the simple fact is that the bees will do it as and when they do it!

 

[MandF]

You're taking the P a bit now aren't you dude. The OP doesn't want confusing with that guff.

I am simply demonstrating that neither open/closed feed holes is a black/white choice (and preventing foundation being drawn as has been suggested), nor is bees knowing best a simple black/white choice.

I am playing the ball dude!

edited to add, it would be good if, where appropriate, people either indicated their suggestions were based on personal choice or facts, and/or backed up what they say with reasoning, if possible. New and old beekeepers alike should be encouraged to understand WHY they are doing things, not simply told "dont do X", or "do Y". Beekeeping is an art and based on opinions, so we should either try and give balanced advice, or be allowed to voice the alternative opinion, no? This is, after all, a discussion board, not an instructional board.

 

[Poly Hive]

A lot of the beginners are here for instructions.

The philosophy can be confusing. Especially when it is guess work to a large extent.

If I am asked how to get bees into a super I am going to ask how strong they are straight off, not start a discussion on pheromones. But that's me.

PH

 

[MandF]

A lot of the beginners are here for instructions.

The philosophy can be confusing. Especially when it is guess work to a large extent.
If I am asked how to get bees into a super I am going to ask how strong they are straight off, not start a discussion on pheromones. But that's me.

PH

Guess work - my point exactly.

And as for explanation, thats why I said "if possible".

Just a simple "you could try..." is sufficient, as this implies that nothing is actually guaranteed to work.

By saying "do this.." one is implying that is the reason.

The OP is free to peruse the rest of the board, and other threads which discuss the whys and wherefores at their leisure should they so wish.

Most importantly the OP now knows that QE on or off makes little difference to foundation being drawn, and ditto with open feed holes (and wide open entrances).

 

[Walrus]

Hi

I am new to beekeeping so please forgive me if I am asking something stupid. I have a WBC hive containing a brood chamber with a see-through perspex lid, containing a colony which I obtained locally in May this year. I fed them several times during June due to the poor weather. The colony appears to have expanded to all but the end-most frames over the last couple of days I have noticed that a number of bees seem to permanently congregate on the ledge just outside the entrance to the hive, even at night. Is this because the hive is becoming too crowded and I need to add a super? But then why haven't they filled the end frames? I have attached a photo which was taken today at 15:00 during fine weather whilst may of the bees are out foraging. Any advice would be gratefully received.

Also is it correct that I should add the first super without the queen excluder, and when that is fully drawn-out add the excluder and a second super? This is the advice given in the book I am using, however the person who supplied the colony said that I could add the excluder and super and harvest some honey this year if the colony did well enough.

This is my second attempt at bee-keeping, having first obtained a colony two years ago which did not survive the winter (not sure exactly why).

Welcome to the forum PW63

I hope you are able to ignore some of the silly stuff that can go on (egos, personality clashes, 's etc). I am quite new to the forum and there really is some good stuff on here, and some real expertise.

Hope you stick around and good luck with your bees!