When is a six frame Nuc not a six frame nuc?

[Swn58]

Six frame nucs obviously cost more money than a four or five framers. A few weeks ago I finally got 10 six-frame nucs that had cost me a pretty penny. (See my other posts)
The overall quality of the bees was superb. All frames were brimming with brood, supplies and thousands of bees. However, two nucs were not quite so good. Nuc 7 had appeared lighter to carry and sure enough there were two frames that not only did not contain brood or supplies, but had barely drawn comb. I was a bit surprised. The empty frames were two spaces in on each side, so there was brood and supplies on either side of them. Nuc 10 also had one frame that was all but bare, placed in the middle.
I emailed the supplier, to ask what had happened. Their reply was a bit strange. They said that the beekeeper had reported to them that all the nucs were above average in size and I bought the best queens for temperament etc. I said that I knew my way around a hive and it looked like three empty frames had been brought in to 'pack out' the two nucs. Whilst I was not disputing the overall quality of the bees, I pointed out that each frame of the SIX frame nucs had cost me £46, minus the price of the box they came in, so I had lost about £130 on the deal! They disputed this, saying that there was nothing wrong.
My question is, when one buys a six frame nuc, advertised as end to end populated with a queen, brood, bees and stores, shouldn't SIX frames be expected, or is it alright to pack them with bare frames when needed?

 

[For want of a better word]

WHY on Earth did you not check them over at the suppliers before accepting them?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You don't buy a six frame nuc and expect them to be packed with brood on every frame, getting them like that is a bonus (sort of as you have to get your finger out and hive them immediately.
A nuc with four frames of brood is acceptable IMHO

 

[enrico]

I can see why you feel cheated. I would.

 

[Repwoc]

Did you get any photos? I wouldn't be happy getting empty frames especially as you seem to have paid top dollar for the nucs.

 

[Ian123]

Yes photos are your best bet I would suggest on a 6 frame nuc 4 frames with brood and a couple of stores would be normal. As to the question why you did not inspect?...if you want to add another £50 to the price go ahead. If there was an issue photos and a mail inc the pics straight to the supplier on the day would have been the best bet. Nucs/bees are live stock and there will always be variations. Undrawn frames though are not acceptable. I Don’t think any of the main suppliers offer inspection and some inc the 1 in question don’t even produce all the nucs themselves. Also the simple truth is most (nucs) are taken from larger hives depending on time of year. Ian

 

[gmonag]

It's like buying a Toblerone and finding half the triangles missing.

 

[Swn58]

Um.....you do when it is advertised like that. I was basically told I lucky to get what I did. I replied that if they ordered 24 bottles of wine and only 22 arrived , they would not be happy. Less so, if the vendor then said 'You lucky sod....at least the other bottles were full!' Obviously you think it is fine. Want to buy some wine? LOL

 

[Swn58]

It's like buying a Toblerone and finding half the triangles missing.

YES....precisely! My analogy involved ordering 24 bottles of wine and only getting 22, then being told I was lucky that the ones I got were at least full!

 

[Ian123]

Did you get any pictures?

 

[Swn58]

Did you get any photos? I wouldn't be happy getting empty frames especially as you seem to have paid top dollar for the nucs.

I have somehow lost the photos that I sent back to the supplier. Just to say though, that despite denials of anything being wrong, I was compensated. I did say that it was not the money, as such, but the principle of the matter!

 

[Ian123]

Lol all good then, probably could of said they corrected the issue at the start!

 

[Swn58]

WHY on Earth did you not check them over at the suppliers before accepting them?

Hmmmm......I drive 100 miles to collect them. I actually had police permission to go. Covid-19 rules said that I was NOT to see ANYONE at the shop. When I got there, I was greeted by ten travelling nucs sitting outside. Obviously I thought: 'shall I open them all up to CHECK them, before putting them in to my car?' LOL....OF COURSE I DIDN'T! I trusted the vendor.

 

[Swn58]

Lol all good then, probably could of said they corrected the issue at the start!

They did not correct the issue at the start.....there were many emails. If they had just admitted it was wrong.....I would have left it. My question still stands. Is it right to sell 6 frame nuks.....possibly only containing 4? So far only one person thinks it's fair. Here's the blurb off the suppliers website: Our nuclei are supplied in a non-returnable plywood travelling box (very useful around the apiary) and are on SIX frames providing a balance of bees of all ages, newly laid eggs, sealed brood and honey stores for food.

 

[Ian123]

I think if you go back to my original post I said a nuc with undrawn frames is not acceptable. If your expecting 6 frames of brood though from that description you are wrong. It simply says the nuc is on 6 frames, 4 of brood is more likely and I would suggest the norm/minimum.

 

[B+.]

They did not correct the issue at the start.....there were many emails. If they had just admitted it was wrong.....I would have left it. My question still stands. Is it right to sell 6 frame nuks.....possibly only containing 4? So far only one person thinks it's fair. Here's the blurb off the suppliers website: Our nuclei are supplied in a non-returnable plywood travelling box (very useful around the apiary) and are on SIX frames providing a balance of bees of all ages, newly laid eggs, sealed brood and honey stores for food.

Look at it this way, 4 frames of brood will fill a 6 frame nuc as soon as the sealed brood emerges. I would expect 1 frame to be drawn/empty comb and possibly a partly drawn foundation so they have something to work on. At least a frame of open stores (honey & pollen) and the rest being brood in all stages, covered with bees & a mated/laying queen.
I can see that you're unhappy with the two that failed to live up to your expectations but it sounds like you're happy with the others. On the whole, would you say it averages out to an acceptable product?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If your expecting 6 frames of brood though from that description you are wrong. It simply says the nuc is on 6 frames, 4 of brood is more likely and I would suggest the norm/minimum.

 

[iann41]

I do supply the odd nuc (think i have sold 5 this year) and i would feel that i cheated someone if i put undrawn foundation in a nuc. As above 6 frames of brood should not be expected. 4 plus 2 of stores and pollen is typical. I also think that an over populated nuc is counter productive as the swarming instinct can be triggered. The majority of people buying nucs from me are beginners and the last thing they need is swarming. Enough bees to cover and maintain the brood, plus a few extra is what i aim for. I also aim to have at least 3 frames of capped brood and 1 of larvae/eggs if an overwintered nuc. Feel free to pull my technique to bits. Ian

 

[GuyNir]

I do supply the odd nuc (think i have sold 5 this year) and i would feel that i cheated someone if i put undrawn foundation in a nuc. As above 6 frames of brood should not be expected. 4 plus 2 of stores and pollen is typical. I also think that an over populated nuc is counter productive as the swarming instinct can be triggered. The majority of people buying nucs from me are beginners and the last thing they need is swarming. Enough bees to cover and maintain the brood, plus a few extra is what i aim for. I also aim to have at least 3 frames of capped brood and 1 of larvae/eggs if an overwintered nuc. Feel free to pull my technique to bits. Ian

Sound very reasonable to me

 

[iann41]

I've just reread the posts and my questions are

Why on earth is a beekeeper with 20 hives buying nucs.
To have 20 hives you should have enough knowledge and experience to make up your own.
and if they are a noob, what are they doing with 30 colonies.