When do you nadir your hives?

[Erichalfbee]

I think it’s horses for courses
It’s whatever suits
I don’t like it and find a National too small so use 14x12
Some people hate those...... shrug!

 

[GuyNir]

No, it's still an abomination and an unnecessary fiddle.
If your bees need more room, either go double brood or chose a bigger hive.

That’s what I referred to above. Do what’s right for you.

 

[bingevader]

No, it's still an abomination and an unnecessary fiddle.
If your bees need more room, either go double brood or chose a bigger hive.

Effectively, we run brood and a half.
The bees don't seem to mind and neither do we.
This has come about more because of the kit at our disposal than anything else and because we don't use QEs.
Nevertheless, it's all good in this neck of the woods.

 

[Monbees]

No, it's still an abomination and an unnecessary fiddle.
If your bees need more room, either go double brood or chose a bigger hive.

That, of course, is your opinion, but a very dismissive comment from a 'super moderator'; more balance would be appreciated.

 

[Amari]

Even poorer if you give them a super of syrup which they cap then you put it underneath them.

I would hope that a Moderator is a mediator between differing views! There's rarely a complete right and wrong. Some methods may not be the majority view but maybe some of us are more comfortable or enjoy experimenting with different methods....
As long as it's not cruel or unethical. Vive la difference!

 

[Erichalfbee]

I would hope that a Moderator is a mediator between differing views!

No, my job is too make sure everybody remains civil and respectful and minds their language. I am still entitled to an opinion, just as everybody else is.

 

[Erichalfbee]

That, of course, is your opinion, but a very dismissive comment from a 'super moderator'; more balance would be appreciated.

We all have differing views. We all have different methods of keyboard delivery. Perhaps the answer is for everybody to have "In My Opinion" as their signature?
There is nothing in the "super moderator" label. Its simply how the forum software describes us

 

[Speybee]

Am l right in thinking brood and a half is not the no-no it once was on this forum? I can maybe now raise my head above the parapet ...

Whether it’s a ‘No No’ or not, using a brood and a half on a standard National, several of us are still using brood and a half!
Some of us dipping our tootsies into beekeeping using Standard British designs for Nationals and WBC’s, before the swing towards the huge Langstroths favoured in the USA ( too heavy for my small frame to lift unfortunately)

 

[bobthecob]

I found them in spring starved with full frames of stores above their heads.

You found them dead, but can you be completely sure if was from starvation?

 

[drex]

My beekeeping has changed with my beekeeping experience. I was taught on commercial but did not like the small lugs. Started my own hives with single National, then as bees grew went to brood and a half. Handled some friends 14*12 , but did not like the seemingly huge frames, so have settled down on double brood Nationals. Wish now I had gone straight for commercials, as short lugs would not faze me now

 

[Madge]

You found them dead, but can you be completely sure if was from starvation?

Yes. No doubt. Heads in cells in the bottom box; full box above them; no Nosema; no mites.

 

[bobthecob]

Heads in cells in the bottom box

You are probably right about the starvation. Though heads in cells doesn't mean anything - that's just how bees cluster. But sorry to hear that happened. I have never had it happen to me, but there's a first time for everything!

 

[Swn58]

the bees spend all spring and summer collecting and processing nectar to build up stores for the winter only to have most or all of it stolen and eaten/flogged off by humans; in return they have to start all over again or get given some cheap stuff shipped over from god knows where or dug up from the fields of East Anglia and boiled to death in Bury St Edmunds

poor bees!

I may be wrong, but the bees that we have that produce honey etc. for us 'greedy' humans were developed by us, over many years. Originally, in Europe, they came from forest honey bees. A real breakthrough came with Brother Adam who developed the 'Buckfast' strain in the early 20th century, though many may dispute that. These bees produced a lot more honey than any colony required. They were bred to be more productive, so 'modern' beekeeping took off. Before that, colonies were often destroyed every year to harvest the honey.
We now have 'unnatural' domestic bees, like we have 'unnatural' horses and cattle.....even wolves.....oops....sorry Chihuaha's!
Us Beeks in general love our bees and do our best to look after them. Okay, some vegetarians and ALL vegans disagree with what we do. Personally I think that is just the way things are. We give....we take....we give more....we take more. I have never met a Beek that doesn't give a lot more back to their bees and surrounding environment than they actually take.
If you don't agree with the system we are all in.....don't do it.....don't use the produce etc.!
The above may be a bit simplistic, but so was the original comment?

 

[Gilberdyke John]

As a (relative) beginner I find this very confusing....

The argument for nadiring appears to be that initially any stores that were in the nadir when put under the brood box can be assimilated into those around the cluster in the brood box. Once that has happened leaving the nadir in place acts to lift the brood box away from the potentially draughty entrance while the empty frames act as baffles to further reduce cold air getting to the brood. If the stores have been moved out of the nadir then the potential for robbing is surely reduced as the intruders have to venture further into the hive to get to the stores. That all sounds good to me.

The argument against seems to be that the extra stores that come from the nadir may displace the brood and move it down into the nadir, closer to the entrance. If that's the case then surely the cluster is no closer to the entrance than if there was no nadir and at the same time the brood has a better stock of stores for the winter from the nadir. That also sounds good to me.

Is the argument against based on experience that the bees tend to build vertically rather than horizontally and may therefore leave open space at the side of the boxes, making the whole nest taller and therefore with a greater volume to heat?

Forgive me but unless that's the case I can't see the problem with nadiring. Please educate me! Thanks.

After taking off the final crop of honey I place an extracted super under the brood box, start varroa treatment and on completion feed with thymolated syrup. During this period the bees are taking late season forage. They sort out for themselves what goes where amongst the frames. Occasionally there might be a season when a half filled super remains after harvesting but a cursory glance will indicate the layout of stores/brood in the brood frames as queen excluders are being removed. If theres a lot of space to fill the bees may well decide to shift honey around from a nadired box, if not why worry? You could leave a honey stock in a super above the brood box after removing the qe but the queen will most probably then lay eggs up there. Not a major problem but the comb will be discoloured for next season. Some people are not bothered but some are. Your decision.

 

[Plastics]

I may be wrong, but the bees that we have that produce honey etc. for us 'greedy' humans were developed by us, over many years. Originally, in Europe, they came from forest honey bees. A real breakthrough came with Brother Adam who developed the 'Buckfast' strain in the early 20th century, though many may dispute that. These bees produced a lot more honey than any colony required. They were bred to be more productive, so 'modern' beekeeping took off. Before that, colonies were often destroyed every year to harvest the honey.
We now have 'unnatural' domestic bees, like we have 'unnatural' horses and cattle.....even wolves.....oops....sorry Chihuaha's!
Us Beeks in general love our bees and do our best to look after them. Okay, some vegetarians and ALL vegans disagree with what we do. Personally I think that is just the way things are. We give....we take....we give more....we take more. I have never met a Beek that doesn't give a lot more back to their bees and surrounding environment than they actually take.
If you don't agree with the system we are all in.....don't do it.....don't use the produce etc.!
The above may be a bit simplistic, but so was the original comment?

I think you may have missed the heavy dose of irony in my reply!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

And anyone who believes that bees (of any kind) are 'domesticated', needs to have a word with themselves.

 

[Levitt53]

For the last few years I have nadired the odd bits that are unripe, partly filled etc. The reason I do this is that there is loads of ivy around and also as I use poly hives my bees don't use much of their winter stores. Normally by the time I get to them in the spring there are quite a few completely full frames and the hives are bursting with bees. A few of the extra frames go in my freezer for splits etc. The nadired super gives me the insurance of somewhere the for the queen to lay if she can't find any room in the brood box. Also if I left the super on top I would be left with a super of mostly ivy filled honey in the spring which I don't really want. I do all of the larger colonies (ie the ones who had supers) at the same time so they all need to move the stores and not rob each other out. Other than the fact or the robbing issue it isn't much different to putting it above the crown board for the bees to bring down in regard to the workload. I totally agree not to do this with a super which had much in. It's one of those things which you need to try and decide what you want to do and what works for you.

 

[Swn58]

I think you may have missed the heavy dose of irony in my reply!

Okay.....it was late, but in my defense, I have run-ins with such people quite a lot!

 

[Swn58]

And anyone who believes that bees (of any kind) are 'domesticated', needs to have a word with themselves.

So.....I should be having a 'word' with myself Mr Super JBM 'oderator? I was under the impression that Buckfast were bred to produce the best amounts of honey etc.? If that's the case.....surely they are 'domesticated?' If you are talking about the danger involved with bees.....many 'domesticated animals are dangerous.....do you want a list?

 

[Billy01]

If you think what you’re doing it becomes less of a conundrum.
if you leave the super on top the bees move up where it’s warmest as they eat. But I even question the need of a super at all. There is plenty of room in even a National for 40 lb of stores with the option of fondant in late winter if they are light. I’ve left only one this year and that was to give the bees room.

The whole idea is for the convenience of the beekeeper who wants his/her supers clean and ready for next year. Nothing to do with what's best for the bees (have a look where they put their stores) They do all that work and then have to do it again, poor bees.

Not necessarily. I done a varoa count on 1st Sept. The hive needs treated. I have apivar, which I cannot use with supers apparently. So I have nadired my super with the intension of taking it away once the honey taken up. My problem as a new beekeeper is, it has been 1 week now and the bees havnt taken a drop of honey up to the brood box. What should I do in order to treat the varoa