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When do you nadir your hives?

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fiat500bee 

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dumping of a whole super of capped stores beneath the brood
I admit that I know nothing; but in this situation, when I don't need the "sugar" honey I accidentally let them make, is it risky leaving it above them? I'm seeing messages that when they cluster they might not cross the gap from the bottom box with mainly brood to the super with honey.

It definitely makes sense to me to elave it up top.
 

GuyNir 

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They are likely to move up in winter. Never experienced this ’no crossing’ issue.
 

Erichalfbee 

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If you think what you’re doing it becomes less of a conundrum.
if you leave the super on top the bees move up where it’s warmest as they eat. But I even question the need of a super at all. There is plenty of room in even a National for 40 lb of stores with the option of fondant in late winter if they are light. I’ve left only one this year and that was to give the bees room.
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

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is it risky leaving it above them? I'm seeing messages that when they cluster they might not cross the gap from the bottom box with mainly brood to the super with honey.
never seen it, never heard of such a thing. bees don't pop out of the cluster to get a snack much as we would pop down to the corner shop for a pastie and a packet of crisps. They gradually move as one entity (brood included, technically) across the frames, always keeping in contact with the food.
Only instance I've heard of bees starving within reach of food is either the QX was left in or the colony was too tiny to survive in any situation.
 

Amari 

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so because you disagree with it it's dogmatic.
Big difference between putting scraps of stores and uncapped/unripe honey below the brood for them to move up and the blinkered dumping of a whole super of capped stores beneath the brood where it's harder to defend and move up just because 'I've always done it this way'
Your suggestion that I'm set in my ways has just reminded me: I must renew my supply of matchsticks ready for the winter... Ta very much.
 

fiat500bee 

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if you leave the super on top the bees move up where it’s warmest as they eat. But I even question the need of a super at all. There is plenty of room in even a National for 40 lb of stores with the option of fondant in late winter if they are light.
never seen it, never heard of such a thing. bees don't pop out of the cluster to get a snack much as we would pop down to the corner shop for a pastie and a packet of crisps. They gradually move as one entity (brood included, technically) across the frames, always keeping in contact with the food.
Only instance I've heard of bees starving within reach of food is either the QX was left in or the colony was too tiny to survive in any situation.
 

Etton 

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Never intended to start a great ‘nadiring’ debate when I first posted, but I suppose that’s what the forum is for, so long as we stay polite.
It’s made me change my thinking, though!! I have never nadired capped supers, just those uncapped ones and with frames only partly filled. (Some with sugar syrup if fed when found hives light). So I’m thinking rather than move them below why not put them above the crown board with a small hole to let them steal downwards, then remove the super when cleared. Does this sound a better proposition than nadiring?
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

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Never intended to start a great ‘nadiring’ debate when I first posted, but I suppose that’s what the forum is for, so long as we stay polite.
It’s made me change my thinking, though!! I have never nadired capped supers, just those uncapped ones and with frames only partly filled. (Some with sugar syrup if fed when found hives light). So I’m thinking rather than move them below why not put them above the crown board with a small hole to let them steal downwards, then remove the super when cleared. Does this sound a better proposition than nadiring?
might work with bitty quantities but I've found it gets mixed results.
 

Erichalfbee 

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Never intended to start a great ‘nadiring’ debate when I first posted, but I suppose that’s what the forum is for, so long as we stay polite.
It’s made me change my thinking, though!! I have never nadired capped supers, just those uncapped ones and with frames only partly filled. (Some with sugar syrup if fed when found hives light). So I’m thinking rather than move them below why not put them above the crown board with a small hole to let them steal downwards, then remove the super when cleared. Does this sound a better proposition than nadiring?
Some of us have great results with that. It’s said that an empty super between the crownboard and the frames to be emptied works. It never works for me but if I put a couple of uncapped frames flat on the crownboard that seems to.
 

Mellifera Crofter 

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They are likely to move up in winter. Never experienced this ’no crossing’ issue.
I have experienced this - but only once. It was a strong colony in a double Paynes nuc. The top box was filled with food stores, and the brood was in the lower box. They never moved up, as I had expected them to do. I found them in spring starved with full frames of stores above their heads.
 

GuyNir 

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I have experienced this - but only once. It was a strong colony in a double Paynes nuc. The top box was filled with food stores, and the brood was in the lower box. They never moved up, as I had expected them to do. I found them in spring starved with full frames of stores above their heads.
Thanks for sharing. Interesting...
 

fiat500bee 

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I have experienced this - but only once. It was a strong colony in a double Paynes nuc. The top box was filled with food stores, and the brood was in the lower box. They never moved up, as I had expected them to do. I found them in spring starved with full frames of stores above their heads.
That's exactly what I'm worried about. I wondered if I did my best to leave in place the odd bits of brace-comb at the top-bars and bases of the under and above frames it might help to give them a "leg-up" when that day came? ;)

Having seen a few videos of mid-winter examinations through a transparent crown-board it looks like there are often a good number of maverick bees prancing about when they are supposed to be clustering. I was wondering if in that in that way there might be some communication or direct passing of food from the hardier/braver/less team-player bees. ;)
 

Mellifera Crofter 

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That's exactly what I'm worried about. I wondered if I did my best to leave in place the odd bits of brace-comb ...
I don’t think brace comb bridges would help! I think it was Polyhive who said to ensure that the store frames were filled right to the bottom (but mine were, as far as I can remember).

In double Paynes nucs I now split the brood frames over both boxes (a top brood frame immediately above a bottom brood frame). I’m not worried about a box of shallows filled with honey above a brood box in a full hive.
 

Plastics 

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The whole idea is for the convenience of the beekeeper who wants his/her supers clean and ready for next year. Nothing to do with what's best for the bees (have a look where they put their stores) They do all that work and then have to do it again, poor bees.
the bees spend all spring and summer collecting and processing nectar to build up stores for the winter only to have most or all of it stolen and eaten/flogged off by humans; in return they have to start all over again or get given some cheap stuff shipped over from god knows where or dug up from the fields of East Anglia and boiled to death in Bury St Edmunds

poor bees!
 

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I run langstroth and national. langstroth winter on brood box. Nationals on brood and half. Half always on top all year. I refer to it as the pantry. I take the Qex out end of October and put it back on first inspection in march. I never extract from it, it belongs to the bees so I never worry about syrup honey etc. How it's used throughout the year is as fascinating as the brood nest. The ebb and flow of nectar and pollen storage amazes me. I find very little brood in it in March although stores will be consumed. With the pantry half it's easier to maintain clean supers above it. I also leave mesh floors open and dont use mouse guards although I leave narrow entrances. I have some of the finest woodpecker nets you have ever seen as the local woodpeckers are equipped with drill bits and augers
Jools
 

GuyNir 

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I run langstroth and national. langstroth winter on brood box. Nationals on brood and half. Half always on top all year. I refer to it as the pantry. I take the Qex out end of October and put it back on first inspection in march. I never extract from it, it belongs to the bees so I never worry about syrup honey etc. How it's used throughout the year is as fascinating as the brood nest. The ebb and flow of nectar and pollen storage amazes me. I find very little brood in it in March although stores will be consumed. With the pantry half it's easier to maintain clean supers above it. I also leave mesh floors open and dont use mouse guards although I leave narrow entrances. I have some of the finest woodpecker nets you have ever seen as the local woodpeckers are equipped with drill bits and augers
Jools
I normally run singles. Will try couple colonies as brood & half next year. Both already have a super 2/3 full left on top.
 
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I normally run singles. Will try couple colonies as brood & half next year. Both already have a super 2/3 full left on top.
Am l right in thinking brood and a half is not the no-no it once was on this forum? I can maybe now raise my head above the parapet ...
 

GuyNir 

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Am l right in thinking brood and a half is not the no-no it once was on this forum? I can maybe now raise my head above the parapet ...
I know what you mean. I saw similar comments here before.
I do what I think is right for me and see no harm in giving it a go. I find controlling swarming in spring/summer on single national tricky, so thinking it might help.
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

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Am l right in thinking brood and a half is not the no-no it once was on this forum? I can maybe now raise my head above the parapet ...
No, it's still an abomination and an unnecessary fiddle.
If your bees need more room, either go double brood or chose a bigger hive.
 
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