What's happening here?

[beeno]

Thanks for sharing this as Braula is before my time as a beek and something we don't see in this country any more following varroa treatments. Text books state that Braula only becomes a problem in weakened colonies and yours certainly is. However, swarming including many cast swarms will deplete a colony and you don't mark your queen's, so the primary could have escaped without you necessarily noticing it followed by a succession of casts. Could be Nosema Cerana. If you take the route of "suck it and see" do isolate them just in case. Good luck.

 

[Antipodes]

Thanks for sharing this as Braula is before my time as a beek and something we don't see in this country any more following varroa treatments. Text books state that Braula only becomes a problem in weakened colonies and yours certainly is. However, swarming including many cast swarms will deplete a colony and you don't mark your queen's, so the primary could have escaped without you necessarily noticing it followed by a succession of casts. Could be Nosema Cerana. If you take the route of "suck it and see" do isolate them just in case. Good luck.

Thanks Beeno.
It was a strange one. They went from about 40000 bees to 40 in a very short while..inbetween inspections. I'm thinking I somehow missed the supersedure cell and they took off with all but 40 bees and the new queen, also leaving quite a bit of honey and a reasonable amount of capped brood. Why did they leave the new queen with so few bees? There were no queen cell remnants whatsoever in any of the four boxes they were in. The old(er) second year queen was a golden Italian and this new mated queen is definitely not her.
I'm about to devise a little tobacco puffer and get rid of the braula on them.

 

[beeno]

Thanks Beeno.
It was a strange one. They went from about 40000 bees to 40 in a very short while..inbetween inspections. I'm thinking I somehow missed the supersedure cell and they took off with all but 40 bees and the new queen, also leaving quite a bit of honey and a reasonable amount of capped brood. Why did they leave the new queen with so few bees? There were no queen cell remnants whatsoever in any of the four boxes they were in. The old(er) second year queen was a golden Italian and this new mated queen is definitely not her.
I'm about to devise a little tobacco puffer and get rid of the braula on them.

Too hot?

 

[Antipodes]

Too hot?

I don't think that is likely...they are at nearly 300 metres above sea level, it actually must have nearly snowed on them around about the time that they took off because we had a cold snap.

 

[Antipodes]

I noticed that the ends of the wings of the queen are tattered.

 

[BeeWitch]

Would be interesting to hear how the rescue plan pans out, Antipodes; I hope it works.

Because of the superficial resemblance to varroa I'm beginning to wonder if we have braula in the UK but just not noticed...

 

[Erichalfbee]

Would be interesting to hear how the rescue plan pans out, Antipodes; I hope it works.

Because of the superficial resemblance to varroa I'm beginning to wonder if we have braula in the UK but just not noticed...

Varroa miticides a have all but eradicated it. Maybe Isle of Man and Colonsay bees have it. It’s not parasitic.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'm wondering if anyone has a suggestion about what is happening here please?

Thanks

I think Murray’s explanation is spot on.
Whatever you do let us know how they get on

 

[gmonag]

Would be interesting to hear how the rescue plan pans out, Antipodes; I hope it works.

Because of the superficial resemblance to varroa I'm beginning to wonder if we have braula in the UK but just not noticed...

Yes we have Braula, but as I understand, it is eradicated by Varroa treatments so hardly ever seen anymore.

Edit: I got beaten to it!

 

[BeeWitch]

I use thymol and thus far no phoretic mites in my colonies (famous last words...) but I'm not sure I would have spotted the difference during a routine inspection. One 'waving' at me as in Anripode's photo here might draw attention, otherwise probably not: if expecting varroa that's possibly what one 'sees'.

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[pargyle]

Thanks all.

My thoughts are that the queen is laying fine, and is likely to be fine, but the bees are not high enough in number to raise the eggs. She is restricted to a small part of the comb because the bees are so few in number so therefore she is constrained to laying multiple eggs in the same cells. She has only just started laying the multiples. There are some parts of the frames where she has laid singles, but the multiples were generally around where they were clustered. I suspect she is a supersedure queen that was in the colony for some time (with the original queen), and then the original queen and all bar about 40 bees and the supersedure queen took off. There were absolutely no remnants of a queen cell(s) at all in the entire colony and she definitely isn't the original queen. If it wasn't for the few remaining bees and the queen, it would have been a total Mary Celeste. I just am not sure why they would leave so few bees with her. Sealed brood was left behind but was not able to be kept warm enough to boost numbers.

I've got her and her attendants in a little poly pocket hive now but the ants are into them...so I'm trying to get them on a water moat at the moment. I'll add a cup of bees from another hive to them and see what happens.

Personally ... I think Murray's explanation is probably the most likely cause .. but .. sometimes you just have to accept that a colony is pretty much doomed and efforts to restore them to anything like a viable colony will cost you more in time, effort and reducing stocks in healthy colonies by using them as donors than they are actually worth. I'm the biggest softie there is when I'm faced with a colony that is failing but .... some colonies are just destined for failure. You've moved them to an appropriate sized box, fed them - cut your losses - let them take their chances. 40 Bees and a queen are not a massive loss, if they thrive on their own they may be worth some more effort to help them along.

 

[Gunzo]

Thanks

 

[pargyle]

Personally I would not shake this out. Big varroa infestation With laying worker. Just poor genes.

shakeout could spread unwanted disease in to a healthy colony. I would vape it to see how bad the drop is and close it up before you get Robbing.

Really sad Loosing colonies but part of the hobby. Ive got one that has gone queen less. it’s been sealed up ready to clear in spring. Dont want the bees begging In to other hives as I can’t inspect to see what has happened to her.

He's in Tasmania - they don't have Varroa (yet) the mites you can see are Braula - read the rest of the thread.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Personally I would not shake this out. Big varroa infestation With laying worker. Just poor genes.

shakeout could spread unwanted disease in to a healthy colony. I would vape it to see how bad the drop is and close it up before you get Robbing.

Really sad Loosing colonies but part of the hobby. Ive got one that has gone queen less. it’s been sealed up ready to clear in spring. Dont want the bees begging In to other hives as I can’t inspect to see what has happened to her.

Firstly, it's not varroa (It's Australia, they don't have them)
It's not laying workers (note the queen)
And are you honestly telling the OP to seal up the hive with live bees in there!
That must rate with one of the poorest bits of 'advice' I have seen on here for some considerable time.

 

[drex]

I use thymol and thus far no phoretic mites in my colonies (famous last words...) but I'm not sure I would have spotted the difference during a routine inspection. One 'waving' at me as in Anripode's photo here might draw attention, otherwise probably not: if expecting varroa that's possibly what one 'sees'.

1. View attachment 23553

The varroa normally tuck themselves in between the abdominal segments on the underside of the bee, hence are not easy to spot, so it is not so easy to say no phoretic mites with any degree of confidence

 

[Antipodes]

I'm really interested to see how that queen performs longer term. It has become an experiment in a sense.
I've smoked them with tobacco and that seems to have killed the fly. I don't usually bother doing anything with them but in the circumstances it was worth a few minutes doing.
At the moment I've got them in a poly pocket hive in the garage with a cupful of bees from another hive to give immediate support to the queen and some warmth. I'll get a split today with appropriate brood from a stronger colony in an out apiary and put them all in an ideal box and give her a chance to lay and get her eggs raised and follow other appropriate suggestions made.
I don't think the bees were sick as there were no overt signs of disease, save perhaps the one bee that Murray pointed out, but if anyone can give any more pointers there I'm all ears. I'm still mystified as to why the main colony would depart leaving such a small cluster and I'm not sure why the queen's wings are torn off at the ends. I've never seen a queen pile up eggs in cells like that but it makes sense as to why. I think I took too much brood from them in spring to make splits and boost other colonies and they superseded the queen, but why they all departed after doing that still remains a mystery as well.

 

[ericbeaumont]

I think I took too much brood from them in spring to make splits and boost other colonies and they superseded the queen, but why they all departed after doing that still remains a mystery as well.

Perhaps taking too much brood in the same window as supersedure left them without brood for too long. Which is more likely: abandon the virgin, or age and die? Multiple eggs are either as per Murrays' suggestion - insufficient bees to keep up with her rate of lay - or a newly mated queen starting out and settling down (or both).

It's 15C in Hobart today and 19 tomorrow; I'd look to get many more bees and some emerging brood in there. May be a lost cause, but curiosity might lead to understanding and we'd all like some of that, so please post the outcome.

 

[elainemary]

Personally I would not shake this out. Big varroa infestation With laying worker. Just poor genes.

shakeout could spread unwanted disease in to a healthy colony. I would vape it to see how bad the drop is and close it up before you get Robbing.

Really sad Loosing colonies but part of the hobby. Ive got one that has gone queen less. it’s been sealed up ready to clear in spring. Dont want the bees begging In to other hives as I can’t inspect to see what has happened to her.

That sounds cruel sealing up a hive with live bees in...why wouldn’t you want those bees to join other hives, unless there’s evidence of disease? Or if badly diseased wouldn’t it be better to dispatch the bees with a humane method? Even if they are insects they should be treated kindly in my view.

 

[Erichalfbee]

That sounds cruel sealing up a hive with live bees in...why wouldn’t you want those bees to join other hives, unless there’s evidence of disease? Or if badly diseased wouldn’t it be better to dispatch the bees with a humane method? Even if they are insects they should be treated kindly in my view.

“Personally I would not shake this out. Big varroa infestation With laying worker. Just poor genes.

shakeout could spread unwanted disease in to a healthy colony. I would vape it to see how bad the drop is and close it up before you get Robbing.”


To be fair @Gunzo probably intended to say to seal up the hive after the bees were dispatched. I’ve never heard of anybody killing bees by simply sealing the hive on purpose. Lots of folk in the U.K. have never seen Braula and equally lots of folk don’t read the whole thread before posting.

 

[elainemary]

“Personally I would not shake this out. Big varroa infestation With laying worker. Just poor genes.

shakeout could spread unwanted disease in to a healthy colony. I would vape it to see how bad the drop is and close it up before you get Robbing.”


To be fair @Gunzo probably intended to say to seal up the hive after the bees were dispatched. I’ve never heard of anybody killing bees by simply sealing the hive on purpose. Lots of folk in the U.K. have never seen Braula and equally lots of folk don’t read the whole thread before posting.

Hi Dani, agree in the Braula case; it was the follow-on reference to sealing up his own hive with a failed queen, that I thought was poor practise. Unless I’ve misunderstood what he meant.
I recall reading a post earlier in the summer about someone who also did this to a wild colony, didn’t want wild bees mating with his, so he sealed up the tree so they would perish inside. Shocking behaviour from a beekeeper in that particular case