Wasps

[Dusty Rhodes]

Or even posts from people who might be trying to sell something

Sorry Adrian, I think you are out of order here. You've been on the forum long enough to know there was an issue when the member came on to the forum but since then I think his 'expert' knowledge is of benefit to the rest of us, and he hasn't tried to plug his product. I haven't bought his trap but have been grateful for his input.

Tim.

Agreed.

Karol has been meticulous in abiding by the rules and conventions of the Forum.

And I think many of us have benefitted from his knowledge.

(Oh and I have bought the not-to-be-mentioned trap.)

Dusty

 

[Dishmop]

By the way, there was some discussion a year or so back about using Vicks, TCP etc to deter robbers. eg http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=12652 I put some Vicks instead of Vaseline on my OMF board just because (it's a thymol product) and it might help v wasps if the earlier threads are any guide. Any "no No NOOO"s out there?

Vics Vapor Rub contains thymol.

 

[AdrianSmith]

Or even posts from people who might be trying to sell something

Sorry Adrian, I think you are out of order here. You've been on the forum long enough to know there was an issue when the member came on to the forum but since then I think his 'expert' knowledge is of benefit to the rest of us, and he hasn't tried to plug his product. I haven't bought his trap but have been grateful for his input.

Tim.

Oh, I thought it might have been a bit cheeky rather than out of order.
I have been aware of a few niggles, but not of something I'd call an issue.
As it happens, I quite like some of Karols posts too.
It was a serious comment, in the general context of reading things critically, but with a cheeky sideways look - hence the smiley. I certainly hope he read itt that way.
I clearly need to read my own posts more critically.

 

[dpearce4]

I think I may be lucky at my main apiary, there is a badger set in the same area and I seem to have very few wasps anywhere near the hives. where as another companies apiary on the same farm but with no badgers anywhere near has got at least 3 hives under sustained attack hundreds of wasps on the roofs of each.

Also would it be a good thing to allow the nettles to grow up around the entrances so as to not give the wasps a direct flight path or would that be a stupid idea?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Agreed.

Karol has been meticulous in abiding by the rules and conventions of the Forum.

And I think many of us have benefitted from his knowledge.

(Oh and I have bought the not-to-be-mentioned trap.)

Dusty

His traps do work for me.

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

His traps do work for me.

How did you get out of it then, ericA?

Dusty

 

[PBee]

..............
It's not my experience that worker size increases as the season progresses. In filming embryonic nests the first cohort of workers have been the same size as latter season workers. In all the behavioural field work I've done I've not seen any appreciable change in worker wasp dimensions within the same nest and monitoring programmed swarm feeding is a good way to detect variations in size.
..................

It seems to be a generally accepted fact that worker size is related to colony size .......

The size of Vespula workers increases as colony size increases, and larger workers may be more likely to forage than smaller workers (Spradbery 1965, 1973; Archer 1972); however, worker size has not been linked to earlier onset of foraging tasks. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2999442/

 

[Karol]

Oh, I thought it might have been a bit cheeky rather than out of order.
I have been aware of a few niggles, but not of something I'd call an issue.
As it happens, I quite like some of Karols posts too.
It was a serious comment, in the general context of reading things critically, but with a cheeky sideways look - hence the smiley. I certainly hope he read itt that way.
I clearly need to read my own posts more critically.

You're OK Adrian. I would be a hypocrite if I didn't take it on the chin. My line of work (as a pharmacist) requires me to be skeptical of all information presented about the safety and clinical benefit of medicines to ensure patients are protected from let's call it the enthusiastic excesses of the pharmaceutical industry. Skepticism is healthy. I think it's absolutely right that you challenge everything I say and I have no problem with that but I promise you I participate in the forum out of personal pleasure because I find it immensely rewarding helping people where I know I can make things better and not because of some Macheavellian sales exercise. And incidentally, an NHS charity is a major stakeholder in our company so thank you to all of you who have taken it upon yourselves to purchase what I can't talk about, because in doing so you've improved the patient experience of countless numbers of patients - just thought it might be nice that you can feel good about yourselves given the support that you've shown me.


One of the other things about pharmacists is that they generally suffer from obsessive compulsive disorder. That being the case I have to inform you Adrian that you are wrong. Di hydrogen monoxide is a constituent of wasp venom ergo wasp venom must be more hazardous than DHMO pari passu!

PS forgot the smiley

 

[Karol]

It seems to be a generally accepted fact that worker size is related to colony size .......

I'm aware of the literature. Just haven't seen it in the field. There are other anomalies as well. Carbohydrate foraging is one of those anomalies. Can't say as I've seen wasps sweet feeding before nest maturation to any appreciable extent (save incidental opportunism). Once the nest matures then it's exclusively sweet foraging. How often have you had wasps bother you in June or early July for sweet drinks or sugary foods? Doesn't happen. End of July (at the earliest) onwards (save where nuisance wasps are created prematurely because of denial to colony access.)

 

[Erichalfbee]

How did you get out of it then, ericA?

Dusty

?

Sorry, thick hat on this morning

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

?

Sorry, thick hat on this morning

No you haven't; it made no sense to me either.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

...because clearly the trap will be plastic and so will not block a wireless signal.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

How did you get out of it then, ericA?

Dusty

?

Sorry, thick hat on this morning

No you haven't; it made no sense to me either.

The trap - how did she get out of it?
You must begin to understand the convoluted thought processes of our Dusty!

 

[Erichalfbee]

The trap - how did she get out of it?
You must begin to understand the convoluted thought processes of our Dusty!

I thought that's what he meant

 

[PBee]

I'm aware of the literature. Just haven't seen it in the field. There are other anomalies as well. Carbohydrate foraging is one of those anomalies. Can't say as I've seen wasps sweet feeding before nest maturation to any appreciable extent (save incidental opportunism). Once the nest matures then it's exclusively sweet foraging. How often have you had wasps bother you in June or early July for sweet drinks or sugary foods? Doesn't happen. End of July (at the earliest) onwards (save where nuisance wasps are created prematurely because of denial to colony access.)

The basis of advancement in science is building on existing peer reviewed work. From my reading of the biology of wasps, foraged carbohydrate is required from start to finish along with protein and water, with amounts varying depending on colony status.

More flesh loads are collected during the large-cell colony phase than during the small-cell colony phase (Table 4), although the percentage of flesh carriers can be as high, during late June and early July, as during the large-cell colony phase .......

......Archer (1977) showed that the fluid load consisted of water and a dissolved solid component, which later was found to be carbohydrate (Archer, 1998). The carbohydrate component is mainly collected from floral and extra-floral nectaries, honeydew and tree sap (Edwards, 1980). The carbohydrates are used as a food for the adults and larvae, while water is used as a nest coolant, besides being drunk by the adults and larvae (Edwards, 1980) .... Archer 2000

A study in New Zealand showed that protein foraging was reduced after rain because carbohydrate foraging took precedence as an energy source. The prey was just as abundant but their source of carbohydrate (honeydew) had been washed off leaving it more difficult to forage.

The reduction of protein foraging most likely results from a change in the efficiency of foraging wasps at gathering high energy foods such as honeydew after rain, because rain reduces honeydew availability. Workers may therefore take longer to meet their own energy requirements before they can forage for protein to feed developing larvae. http://www.nzes.org.nz/nzje/free_issues/NZJEcol15_2_167.pdf

It's never a good idea just to rely on personal observation without putting it into context with that of others and properly controlled experiments. I have not seen wasps scavenging carbohydrate in early July but have seen them on umbellifers at that time. It may be a coincidence, but there is a dearth of nectar around the end of July in many areas which causes bees to actively seek other sources also. Curiously, after wasps being around the home apiary here all week in poor weather, there were only a couple to-day - a good foraging day with bees bringing in ivy pollen. Wasp on Umbellifer, early July this year ......

 

[Karol]

The basis of advancement in science is building on existing peer reviewed work. From my reading of the biology of wasps, foraged carbohydrate is required from start to finish along with protein and water, with amounts varying depending on colony status.


A study in New Zealand showed that protein foraging was reduced after rain because carbohydrate foraging took precedence as an energy source. The prey was just as abundant but their source of carbohydrate (honeydew) had been washed off leaving it more difficult to forage.

It's never a good idea just to rely on personal observation without putting it into context with that of others and properly controlled experiments. I have not seen wasps scavenging carbohydrate in early July but have seen them on umbellifers at that time. It may be a coincidence, but there is a dearth of nectar around the end of July in many areas which causes bees to actively seek other sources also. Curiously, after wasps being around the home apiary here all week in poor weather, there were only a couple to-day - a good foraging day with bees bringing in ivy pollen. Wasp on Umbellifer, early July this year ......

You know PBee, I find it hard to engage in this discussion because I really really don't want to sound arrogant but there is clear blue water between what we understand to be properly controlled experiments and relative context.

Lets look at properly controlled studies shall we? Show me a single study which proves that the source of the carbohydrate in wasp crops didn't originate from feeding from grubs from within the nest and that the 'carbohydrate' foragers hadn't actually departed the nest with the carbohydrates already on board! I haven't seen a single paper where 'foragers' leaving the nest were used as positive controls for carbohydrate filled crops. Guess what though. I've filmed grubs feeding adult wasps with carbohydrate liquid just before they've left the nest! Hmmmmm! Kinda undermines a lot of the assumptions for processing the results for a lot of these 'studies' don't you think?

Perhaps another interpretation of the 'lower' carbohydrate concentration after rain in the NZ paper is that wasps found it harder to find insects after rainfall because...... the insects were 'hiding' from the rain??? and therefore grubs had less chitin to process to feed their adults rather than making the assumption that the rain washed away honeydew denying wasps their source of carbohydrates! Moreover, perhaps another explanation as to why wasps didn't go after 'meat' in the bait stations is because 'meat' is not made of chitin? Perhaps after rainfall the foragers ignored 'purely' protein baits and went after insects preferentially to improve carbohydrate intake via increased chitin load. In my experience (for the little anecdotal value that it's worth), foragers take meat because it is a source of protein for grubs but they don't do this preferentially. The vast majority of the time is spent hunting for insects (better optimal balance between chitin and protein) and not all forays are successful. It is not unreasonable for hunting wasps returning from failed forays to seek carbohydrate sustinance from their grubs so that they can go out again. Seems to me like there's another 'proper control' missing in various study designs published since the 1960's.

I think it is important to draw a distinction between opportunistic 'carbohydrate' supplementation (i.e. a foraging wasp feeding itself) and supposed 'liquid' carbohydrate foraging. Biologically insect skeletons provide a significantly greater amount of carbohydrate by weight than any fluid. Interesting that the assumption is made in most of these papers that insect skeletons are 'devoid of nutrition'. It's a seriously failed assumption and completely undermines the 'proper controls' that were used to draw conclusions.

As for context, it's interesting that you draw parallels with a study conducted in NZ. Vespula species in NZ are alien invaders adjusting to a completely different eco-system. Hardly provides for a reasonable basis to draw analogies with what's happening in the UK. Having spent quite a bit of time talking to entomologists in NZ I personally wouldn't dream of drawing any conclusions about wasp behaviour in NZ because the ecological baselines are potentially so fundamentally different.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Just saw the horrible sight of one of my girls trying to get home without ger abdomen and a wasp flying off with it.

 

[Luminos]

Just saw the horrible sight of one of my girls trying to get home without ger abdomen and a wasp flying off with it.

I, too, saw an abdomen-less bee flying around in a super I took off last week.
(I took a photo but it was rubbish).

 

[PBee]

You know PBee, I find it hard to engage in this discussion because I really really don't want to sound arrogant but there is clear blue water between what we understand to be properly controlled experiments and relative context.

Lets look at properly controlled studies shall we? Show me a single study which proves that the source of the carbohydrate in wasp crops didn't originate from feeding from grubs from within the nest and that the 'carbohydrate' foragers hadn't actually departed the nest with the carbohydrates already on board! I haven't seen a single paper where 'foragers' leaving the nest were used as positive controls for carbohydrate filled crops. Guess what though. I've filmed grubs feeding adult wasps with carbohydrate liquid just before they've left the nest! Hmmmmm! Kinda undermines a lot of the assumptions for processing the results for a lot of these 'studies' don't you think?

......

If you hold a view that seems to be completely at variance with the published work then it is up to you to prove your case with the same rigour. If you have published references that are relevant, then I would be interested in reading them.

On the NZ paper - the basic biology of a species does not change when moved. The availability of honeydew means they exploit the resource, and that they collect it in quantity is fact.

 

[Karol]

If you hold a view that seems to be completely at variance with the published work then it is up to you to prove your case with the same rigour.

Yep it is up to me, and I have done so for my own purposes which is enough for my own ends. The beauty about free speech is I am at liberty to voice my opinions just as you are at liberty to criticise them. The 'learned' institutions once held that the world was flat as a statement of fact and proceeded to persecute those poor miss guided souls who believed otherwise. I have no wish to see exoskeletons coming out of the cupboard by getting embroiled in the (academically monopolistic) politics of publishing!

If you have published references that are relevant, then I would be interested in reading them.

Sorry (genuinely because I know you are a well read and well informed individual) but never been interested in going down that route.

On the NZ paper - the basic biology of a species does not change when moved.

Sorry PBee but that's naive. The biology of species has to adapt for survival, unless of course you don't believe in Darwinism?

The availability of honeydew means they exploit the resource, and that they collect it in quantity is fact.

Big difference between collect and consume. Wasps will visit all manner of places to hunt and not surprisingly will focus on locations where insects congregate (just like lions in Africa congregating around water holes). Wasps are opportunistic and will take advantage of a free meal. That does not change their primary drive to hunt or their foraging (as opposed to feeding) behaviour. I lost count many years ago of the number of people confusing hunting on flower heads for insects with nectar gathering.

Anyway, it doesn't change my suspicion that sweet feeding wasps take bee abdomens to get at the nectar contained within and that this is distinct to hunting where wasps take as much of the bee as possible and return it to their nest to feed their grubs.

What's the significance? Well in the REAL world a hell of a lot because protection strategies are necessarily different depending on whether the wasps are sweet or protein feeding.

Funny that because in NZ and Oz, the locals have failed to get on top of their problem.