Wasps

[mbc]

Show me a single study which proves that the source of the carbohydrate in wasp crops didn't originate from feeding from grubs from within the nest and that the 'carbohydrate' foragers hadn't actually departed the nest with the carbohydrates already on board!

I see a lot of truth in some of your ideas but for me they fall down when you seem to work in absolutes rather than the reality that biological systems generally operate in bell curves.
It seems obvious to me that as the wasp nests mature and less grubs are layed up the proportions of adults to grubs will change gradually, forcing more adult wasps to go carbohydrate hunting rather than them all taking their feed from grubs, and then all switching to hunting for carbohydrates, which seems to be what you are suggesting.

 

[Karol]

I see a lot of truth in some of your ideas but for me they fall down when you seem to work in absolutes rather than the reality that biological systems generally operate in bell curves.
It seems obvious to me that as the wasp nests mature and less grubs are layed up the .proportions of adults to grubs will change gradually, forcing more adult wasps to go carbohydrate hunting rather than them all taking their feed from grubs, and then all switching to hunting for carbohydrates, which seems to be what you are suggesting.

I agree with you. I think you'll find that that was the point I was trying to make with respect to the inferences drawn solely from nests monitored only in July. My experience is that foraging behaviour fits a bell curve as you suggest. However, that bell curve is compressed into a narrow window, typically not more than a few days. It should be remembered that nest development is largely exponential and therefore more work is required to raise each successively larger batch of brood culminating in the sexual progeny. So yes there is a transition period where the adults in the nest can't get enough from the remaining grubs and switch to sweet feeding but I re-iterate that this is feeding and not foraging in the sense that I define foraging as bringing food to the nest.

 

[AdrianSmith]

<snip>

One of the other things about pharmacists is that they generally suffer from obsessive compulsive disorder. That being the case I have to inform you Adrian that you are wrong. Di hydrogen monoxide is a constituent of wasp venom ergo wasp venom must be more hazardous than DHMO pari passu!

PS forgot the smiley

I completely missed that on my first reading of your reply. That just shows how rubbish my reading of this forum is and it's no wonder I miss things not directed at me

It's all about the dose though isn't it

I'm not sure what I think of your "sweet feeding away from the hives" suggestion, by the way, but it does introduce you to some more interesting characters.
This one chased of lots of wasps, but they still mobbed her like smaller birds mob a buzzard:

 

[PBee]

.....
Sorry (genuinely because I know you are a well read and well informed individual) but never been interested in going down that route.

Sorry PBee but that's naive. The biology of species has to adapt for survival, unless of course you don't believe in Darwinism?

Big difference between collect and consume. Wasps will visit all manner of places to hunt and not surprisingly will focus on locations where insects congregate (just like lions in Africa congregating around water holes). Wasps are opportunistic and will take advantage of a free meal. That does not change their primary drive to hunt or their foraging (as opposed to feeding) behaviour. I lost count many years ago of the number of people confusing hunting on flower heads for insects with nectar gathering.

......

Evolution is quite a slow process in many species, and much different to adaptation to different environmental parameters within the constraints of basic species biology. The interesting thing is, the conditions in the honeydew beech forest allow wasp carbohydrate foraging to be studied as they are accessible (on the tree trunks). ..... 

Introduced Vespula wasps have successfully invaded beech (Nothofagus) forests in New Zealand. By collecting honeydew, an abundant carbohydrate resource, wasps can reach high numbers. Honeydew is produced by an endemic scale insect which infests about 1 million hectares of land, 15% of New Zealand's remaining native forest. At the peak of the wasp season, honeydew beech forests had an average biomass of about 3.8 kg of introduced wasps ha−1 (10,000 workers ha−1). These abundant invaders reduce the standing crop of honeydew by more than 90% for 5 months of the year and so compete with native species (such as birds and invertebrates) that also consume honeydew. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006320700001853

(The extrapolated figure, from the paper, for actual honeydew consumption by wasps is from 80 - 340 litres/ha/yr.)

....................... I re-iterate that this is feeding and not foraging in the sense that I define foraging as bringing food to the nest.

From 'Observations on marked foragers of Vespula vulgaris in England (2004)' by Michael Archer....

Fluid needed to fuel the activities of the pulp and flesh collectors may be obtained from other workers when in the colony or when away from the colony. Akre et al. (1976) found that workers visiting the honey dish for less than 12 seconds usually went on to collect pulp or flesh. Workers spending more than 12 seconds at the honey dish returned to the colony to share the fluid with other adults and larvae. http://www.academia.edu/4149439/Observation_on_marked_foragers_of_Vespula_vulgaris_L._Hym._Vespidae_in_England._2004

 

[Karol]

Evolution is quite a slow process in many species, and much different to adaptation to different environmental parameters within the constraints of basic species biology. The interesting thing is, the conditions in the honeydew beech forest allow wasp carbohydrate foraging to be studied as they are accessible (on the tree trunks). ..... 

I think we will have to park the adaptation vs evolutionary debate as being off topic. IMHO you can't get one without the other.

Back on topic; 5 months of carbohydrate foraging - so?

We get up to 4 months sweet feeding in the UK and in some years we hardly get any. All of which is predicated on the development of the nest and when the nest matures. Immature nests = hunting wasps. Mature nests = sweet feeding wasps. Before the 3rd week in July you will not see 'sweet feeding' as anything other than the odd opportune wasp taking a bit for itself. Just doesn't happen and we know because we monitor this behaviour very very closely all over the country - we have to because our traps don't catch any wasps at all during this period - not one wasp! Why is that important. Well, you sell a trap that doesn't catch anything and believe me you get a s**t load of complaints. Once the nests mature then our traps fill like there's no tomorrow.

So it wouldn't surprise me if the wasps in NZ survive a bit longer because there's more sweet food around. It's not the cold that kills off declining workers - it's starvation. In the UK we still see wasp activity right up to January (up to 6 months sweet feeding activity post nest maturation) where there's food available. But it's still predominantly after the nests have matured.

(The extrapolated figure, from the paper, for actual honeydew consumption by wasps is from 80 - 340 litres/ha/yr.)

Peanuts!

The average nest will eradicate between 4,000 to 5,000 Kg of insect pests per season (4-5 metric tonnes). With up to 1000 nests per square mile that's 4,000,000Kg to 5,000,000Kg per season or 15,444 to 19,305 Kg per hectare per year (assuming 1 square mile = 259 hectares).

From 'Observations on marked foragers of Vespula vulgaris in England (2004)' by Michael Archer....

I'm happy PBee for you to tell me I'm wrong and to keep feeding me papers that I've seen a dozen times. You can keep repeating things but it won't change my understanding of wasp behaviour and I certainly won't do anything to undermine the successes that I have with IWM and that I guess is the nub of it. Academia can be a very abstract and disconnected environment. I prefer being on the front line where results speak for themselves.

 

[mbc]

I think we will have to park the adaptation vs evolutionary debate as being off topic. IMHO you can't get one without the other.

A shame as we could go somewhere with that debate, its at the heart of many of the problems our bees face today;
-varroa adapting/evolving to cope with varroacides
-bees adapting/evolving to cope with pesticides, fungicides and herbicides
-beekeepers themselves adapting or evolving to help their charges survive in the ever changing landscape,
a truly endless subject, so perhaps you're right, we should stick to skjirting around the subject of plugging a particular style of wasp trap

 

[norfolknchance]

Evoloution

Evolution is quite a slow process in many species, and much different to adaptation to different environmental parameters within the constraints of basic species biology. The interesting thing is, the conditions in the honeydew beech forest allow wasp carbohydrate foraging to be studied as they are accessible (on the tree trunks). ..... 
(The extrapolated figure, from the paper, for actual honeydew consumption by wasps is from 80 - 340 litres/ha/yr.)



From 'Observations on marked foragers of Vespula vulgaris in England (2004)' by Michael Archer....

The Evolution of the wasp just gets worse, No good for nothing except being spite full, ive killed a million at least tis year and enjoyed every minute of it, persistant isn't the word, Before you start remember these things kill for Fun, and they are Highly trained at it, KILL WITHOUT MERCY

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

The Evolution of the wasp just gets worse, No good for nothing except being spite full, ive killed a million at least tis year and enjoyed every minute of it, persistant isn't the word, Before you start remember these things kill for Fun, and they are Highly trained at it, KILL WITHOUT MERCY

Not as dangerous or crazy as humans, methinks.

Dusty

 

[norfolknchance]

lol

Not as dangerous or crazy as humans, methinks.

Dusty

wonder if you would have tat opinion if god forbid a wasp nest attacked your child,The fear in the eyes call me a liar any ting u want because you will,i saw a wasp attack on a boy of 4 and a boy of 6,They were frozen to the spot tey were being stung at Terror pure terror going through them both, simular noise to a couple of dogs having a viscous fight. I had to get them out no one else would or even tried took 60 plus stings, the 2 lads got 19 between them, The pure fact of the recue saved my life. that wasn't what I was trying to say at all,dont assume as you know wat that means *** u me

 

[Pete D]

The Evolution of the wasp just gets worse, No good for nothing except being spite full, ive killed a million at least tis year and enjoyed every minute of it, persistant isn't the word, Before you start remember these things kill for Fun, and they are Highly trained at it, KILL WITHOUT MERCY

Good morning, lovely one too, sun just breaking through, bees stirring and the odd wasp looking for an easy breakfast. Hives strong enough to repel them though with reduced entrances on so they have to make do with the dead bees chucked out.
Just read your responses to 4 threads this morning, what a way to start the day, lot of anger there mate for first thing Monday morning.
Looking forward to your anti theft device, revoluntionary I hope and not just something to hurt any would be their.
Oh and if you could share any constructive hints and tips from your multi hive owning years of experience that would be great and would make a pleasant change.
All the best and have a pleasant and rewarding day

 

[Erichalfbee]

Good morning, lovely one too, sun just breaking through, bees stirring and the odd wasp looking for an easy breakfast. Hives strong enough to repel them though with reduced entrances on so they have to make do with the dead bees chucked out.
Just read your responses to 4 threads this morning, what a way to start the day, lot of anger there mate for first thing Monday morning.
Looking forward to your anti theft device, revoluntionary I hope and not just something to hurt any would be their.
Oh and if you could share any constructive hints and tips from your multi hive owning years of experience that would be great and would make a pleasant change.
All the best and have a pleasant and rewarding day

Amen Pete D!
Sun breaking through here too.
I can hear the satisfying plop plop of my latest raspberry mead fermenting and the drone of a couple of wasps imprisoned overnight . I shall let them out shortly to enjoy their day.

 

[Chris Luck]

Good morning.

Well I like all creatures including the "wasp" family, never have any problems with them and I'm pleased when I see them nesting on my land.

This years been terrible for them, I have very few of the smaller wasp types, only one colony of vulgaris and only one Vespa crabro which has now reached a decent population size. It's the same throughout the region.

All are now feeding vigorously on fallen and hanging fruit.

They are still hunting insects but this is much reduced.

None of them ever bother me or my bees to any meaningful extent.

They all play an important role in our bio diversity and are less dangerous than getting in the car and going to the shops. I really do think a sense of proportion needs to be applied but given the overall predominance of tunnel vision and neurosis I suspect this won't catch on.

Chris

 

[Karol]

A shame as we could go somewhere with that debate, its at the heart of many of the problems our bees face today;
-varroa adapting/evolving to cope with varroacides
-bees adapting/evolving to cope with pesticides, fungicides and herbicides
-beekeepers themselves adapting or evolving to help their charges survive in the ever changing landscape,
a truly endless subject, so perhaps you're right, we should stick to skjirting around the subject of plugging a particular style of wasp trap

LOL!

You have no idea how tiring it is. It's like incessantly playing that word game where you can't answer with 'yes' or 'no'.

 

[Karol]

Good morning.

Well I like all creatures including the "wasp" family, never have any problems with them and I'm pleased when I see them nesting on my land.

This years been terrible for them, I have very few of the smaller wasp types, only one colony of vulgaris and only one Vespa crabro which has now reached a decent population size. It's the same throughout the region.

All are now feeding vigorously on fallen and hanging fruit.

They are still hunting insects but this is much reduced.

None of them ever bother me or my bees to any meaningful extent.

They all play an important role in our bio diversity and are less dangerous than getting in the car and going to the shops. I really do think a sense of proportion needs to be applied but given the overall predominance of tunnel vision and neurosis I suspect this won't catch on.

Chris

I share most of your sentiments Chris but it's a real struggle educating people that wasps need managing rather than eradicating.

There is only one area where we diverge and that's to do with the extent of the hazard that they represent. Statistically it's one sting per 125 that results in complications that need medical intervention. I doubt that 1 in 125 shopping journeys result in harm to people.

The good news is that things are changing in the UK. We've had good successes in persuading pest controllers to abandon nest eradication in favour of IWM in situations where the nests are not a direct hazard to human health but where nuisance wasps are a hazard (e.g. alfresco dining) which means less pesticide use. We've also seen a rebound in wasp populations in the UK which co-incides with the withdrawal of neonicotinoid foliar sprays by a lot of the DIY and gardening chains! And the rebound in wasp populations has seen a decline in pest populations, i.e. far fewer flies, caterpillars, ticks and varroa etc etc!

 

[Chris Luck]

There is only one area where we diverge and that's to do with the extent of the hazard that they represent. Statistically it's one sting per 125 that results in complications that need medical intervention. I doubt that 1 in 125 shopping journeys result in harm to people.

I'll let you think about that comment and figure out the flaw in it - it's quite obvious.

Chris

 

[sharonh]

I share most of your sentiments Chris but it's a real struggle educating people that wasps need managing rather than eradicating.

There is only one area where we diverge and that's to do with the extent of the hazard that they represent. Statistically it's one sting per 125 that results in complications that need medical intervention. I doubt that 1 in 125 shopping journeys result in harm to people.

The good news is that things are changing in the UK. We've had good successes in persuading pest controllers to abandon nest eradication in favour of IWM in situations where the nests are not a direct hazard to human health but where nuisance wasps are a hazard (e.g. alfresco dining) which means less pesticide use. We've also seen a rebound in wasp populations in the UK which co-incides with the withdrawal of neonicotinoid foliar sprays by a lot of the DIY and gardening chains! And the rebound in wasp populations has seen a decline in pest populations, i.e. far fewer flies, caterpillars, ticks and varroa etc etc!

Hi Karol, I agree with a lot of what is said also, including what Chris said above. I never had a problem with wasps up until this Year. I also believe that hand made traps can make the problem worse. They do kill a lot of them, but can incourage them in also. I found that when I removed all these traps & just put a high sufficiency trap in place. I don't have near the problem I had ,with wasps They are still around but not to the extent that they were. I found this year particular bad. I know some bee keepers had real problems ,with nearly all their hives wiped out by wasps. In a way I can understand, why so many hate them,& will kill them any way they can. I had to intervene a couple of times & close up a nuc hive a couple of different days running ,just to keep wasps out. The colony have recovered & built up nicely since & well defending now. My other hive, very strong, had no problem with defending ,even though the wasps were persistent trying to get in. One good thing, is that my hives are at the bottom of my garden, so can keep an eye on things. I will stick with an high efficiency trap from here on. It has even caught some queens. I really feel for those who have lost their bees ,as if happened to me, I would be heartbroken. I love my bees, & often spent hours watching them. There's nothing nicer than seeing them with their little legs full of pollen working away. I would help them any way I could ,so losing them to wasps would really annoy me. I know wasps play a part also,but with the numbers of them around here this year, my nuc colony wouldn't have a chance without me intervening. Hopefully any of us that had problems with them ,.will have no more now. The numbers of wasps should be decreasing from here on,hurray hurray

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

ive killed a million at least tis year

I've told you a zillion times before not to exagarate - or are you just very good at keeping count?

they are Highly trained at it

Maybe we are better off finding the person doing the training and persuading them to desist from the practice.

simular noise to a couple of dogs having a viscous fight.

Ah terrier treacle fighting - thought that had been banned same time as bull baiting and **** fighting

Oh and if you could share any constructive hints and tips from your multi hive owning years of experience that would be great and would make a pleasant change.
All the best and have a pleasant and rewarding day

 

[Karol]

I'll let you think about that comment and figure out the flaw in it - it's quite obvious.

Chris

.....and are less dangerous than getting in the car and going to the shops.

I'll let you think about that comment and figure out the flaw in it - it's quite obvious.

 

[Chris Luck]

Your mixing things up Karol.

Statistically it's one sting per 125 that results in complications that need medical intervention. I doubt that 1 in 125 shopping journeys result in harm to people.

How many people are actually stung in the UK and then it may be 1 in 125 that require medical intervention, (although I doubt that but then in the UK perhaps people rush to the doctor, it certainly isn't that in France). I'm not even sure where you get these stats, most people I know wouldn't report a wasp sting.

I suspect that more people are treated for injuries when going shopping than are treated for wasp stings AND more people will die from such accidents in any given year.

Anyway, I don't have time for all this, wasps and hornets are fine with me and don't bother my bees - if and when they try to they soon get pounced upon by guards...

...and actually while I'm typing, I just raised two new colonies at the beginning of August with wide open entrances with no problems, both going strong.

Chris

 

[Karol]

Your mixing things up Karol.
<snip>
Chris

We are all coloured by our experiences. Very early on in my career, as a pharmacist, I was doing locum work on a late Saturday afternoon in a community pharmacy when I was confronted with a patient going into anaphylaxis. Thankfully the paramedics arrived in time.

Several years later serendipity gets me involved with wasps to an extent I could never have predicted or imagined. One of the privileges that I have as a healthcare professional is access to medical data and papers not routinely available to lay folk.

The more I research, the bigger I realise that the problem is but because it is fragmented and 'brushed' under the carpet in many cases, the true extent of the problem is difficult for any one individual to grasp. The last time any 'concerted' data was gathered and presented was in 2004 in a Hansard report to Parliament where just under 1000 patients had been hospitalised for serious reactions to wasp stings, not including Kounis and not including those that were treated in primary care.

At the time anaphylaxis was considered the greatest threat from wasp stings. Not any more. Emerging medical data now suggests that Kounis syndrome is a far bigger issue. Sinkewicz et al (heavy going technical paper) identified 8 patients with suspect MIs in their coronary care unit that could be attributed to stings over a two year period. Doesn't sound like much until one scales it up for the 250 coronary care units in the country. Since Sinkewicz there have been more recent findings and particularly of concern is Kounis III where patients appear to be more susceptible to blood clots blocking stents as a complication of wasp stings mainly because thrombus formation is mediated through mast cells and wasp venom contains mast cell degranulating peptide.

Professionally I have a duty of care which I am trying to discharge in a responsible fashion which centres on education and prevention rather than cure. There are certain theme parks who were air lifting up to six patients per annum with anaphylaxis prior to my involvement. They haven't air lifted a single person since (now over 8 years). Results like these speak for themselves.

I understand your sentiments. Live and let live. But I also understand the harm that wasps do and can do. My wife who works in the NHS has seen three cases of life threatening occlusion of the airways in non-anaphylactic patients since August simply because they've been stung inside the mouth/throat and this doesn't include those patients that needed to have treatment for other complications. Scale that up for the NHS and that's 750 patients but the data doesn't get logged in a way that's easily retrievable.

Call it tunnel vision and neurosis if you will. There's more than enough compensation knowing that 48 odd patients were saved from being air lifted from just one theme park alone! So the upshot is I won't go away on this simply because what I do reduces the risk of mortality and morbidity. Professionally that defines my role in life not just with wasp stings but with all the countless hundreds of thousands of patients that benefit from the efforts of the (NHS spin off) company that I work for.