Wasp robbing -- except they're not.

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trouble is they are on double brood and all my sites are affected I cannot feed until they have stopped and have no where to put them

Check where the brood is; if it's predominantly in the upper box, reverse them so the cluster is nearer to the entrance, if it's split between upper and lower then quickly rearrange to lower box. Close up entrances for a day, e.g. with green grass, then reduce to single bee space with sponge or whatever. Beware bee robbing whilst manipulating - cover everything removed and work quickly.

Make up a dummy hive that looks like the others - empty nuc or brood box with some form of wasp trap within - place it at the end or on the edge of the hives. I have had success with this in the past, either as nucs or single brood colonies, or indeed apideas containing honey jar wasp traps.

My 'wasp hoover' discovered by accident some seasons back was a single empty broodbox hive with an inverted rhombus clearer board between brood box and solid floor - i.e. trapping anything that came in. An open coffee jar (Douwe Egberts stopper type!) containing ~2" of proper* Ambrosia was placed above the clearer / in the brood box. Travelling screen board and roof over the top. Placed one at each end of a nuc apiary, needed to empty the jars daily. Few if any bees, don't even remember seeing moths or hornets there, but hundreds of wasps daily.

* Don't use Belgosuc InvertBee, or other invert syrup, as from experience only kosher Ambrosia attracts wasps but not bees.

I've never played with glass panes angled over entrances, but have read mixed reports. Again, an instant option to try if you have some spare greenhouse panes or similar to hand.
 
I have made up some floors with tunnel entrances and exchanged them this morning and my nuc have tunnels screwed over the hole with only one way in and out, and have put out brewing bucket with off mead and beer and apples syrup in at the end off row, which made a difference almost straight away sat there for half an hour and it is working until I can get some traps just got to make sure its kept topped up to train the wasps to the bucket
 
I have made up some floors with tunnel entrances and exchanged them this morning and my nuc have tunnels screwed over the hole with only one way in and out, and have put out brewing bucket with off mead and beer and apples syrup in at the end off row, which made a difference almost straight away sat there for half an hour and it is working until I can get some traps just got to make sure its kept topped up to train the wasps to the bucket

Them tunnels will screw the wasps.. even more if you half the tunnel length ways..believe me i have had problems with wasps in the past... big problems and this method fixed it..
 
It may not seem logical but it is nevertheless true where low efficiency traps are concerned.

Would you stand open dishes of honey, fondant, syrup etc on the top of your hives? Would this be adding novel attractants to the apiary?

I still think you don't understand the wasp robbing hives scenario. In an ideal world, every hive would repel all wasp scouts... but they don't.

Remember that each hive holds many kilos of honey, with not all of it sealed. Hives are actively ventilated, honey smells good... HM's 'honey plume'. On a warm evening after a good day's forage, each hive might have several litres of nectar to ripen, with further sustained ventilation as the water is evaporated. You can walk into the apiary and smell the ripening... and that's with our ineffective human noses, not the highly tuned senses of a starving wasp ;)

So each hive smells like an 'open dish of honey'. Think of the smell coming from an apiary of 12 or more hives. Adding a couple of traps with 200ml of sweet/ferment smell is a distraction not the main attractant. Hence my view that it's illogical to say that adding a trap makes the robbing worse.

But the issue here is what I would call 'wasp pressure'. Single scouts that are batted away by strong hives with correctly constructed entrances in the absence of traps and other superfluous sources of attraction represent little if any 'wasp pressure' on the hive. This is the ideal situation.

Adding extraneous attractants to the apiary including 'low efficiency' traps increases 'wasp pressure' because it draws wasps into the area that would otherwise not remain in the area having not been able to feed successfully in the area. If the 'wasp pressure' around the hives becomes too intense then the hives are at real risk of being overcome.

The moment a hive is infiltrated by wasps, it becomes an inefficient trap - reward & release. After prolonged robbing, a honey bee colony will cease guarding the entrance, as if demoralised. It becomes a completely inefficient trap - just like your "dish of honey, fondant or syrup". They will simply allow the robbers to come and go as they please; the colony is doomed if the robbing persists. Even an open rapid feeder (as posted earlier) is more efficient at trapping than an overwhelmed colony; the feeder clearly drowns some of the wasps visiting, whereas the overwhelmed colony lets them all go.

I found just such a colony last week - a couple of hundred workers around their queen and a tiny patch of brood, wasps coming an going unchallenged, stores completely stripped out.

Just one colony in this state starts a wasp feeding frenzy until stripped. Having then familiarised to the apiary, the wasps will then mob the surrounding colonies; if they find one they can get into, the process continues.

Wasps will strip nucs in a couple of days, moving from one to the next. Mating nucs are even worse, I've seen those stripped out one a day, even the strong ones with entrances reduced to a single beespace.

So, knowing something about the behaviour of wasps around apiaries, I stand by my point that it is illogical to say that adding a trap makes robbing worse. Any trapping alleviates robbing pressure.

The concern for beekeepers is that wasps are going to be attracted to hives, they will persist until they find one they can rob, and they will then strip that colony and any subsequent ones they gain entry to. Yes, there are hive entrance designs that reduce the risk of a colony being overwhelmed, but selective, seasonal trapping of wasps at this time of year is an effective defence for colonies. The trick is to find a bait that attracts wasps not bees, and a style of trap that fills up - the faster it fills, the more efficient it is, and the more effective it is at removing robbing wasps from the apiary.
 
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I think DanBee we will just have to agree to disagree. My understanding of wasp behaviour around hives comes from nearly two decades of actively working with and helping Beekeepers protect their hives. I know what works consistently and what doesn't. I offer advice with no strings. Low efficiency traps make the situation worse despite killing more wasps than high efficiency traps. The number of wasps killed is a miss guided (IMHO) basis upon which to evaluate the effectiveness of a trap.
 
I think DanBee we will just have to agree to disagree. My understanding of wasp behaviour around hives comes from nearly two decades of actively working with and helping Beekeepers protect their hives. I know what works consistently and what doesn't. I offer advice with no strings. Low efficiency traps make the situation worse despite killing more wasps than high efficiency traps. The number of wasps killed is a miss guided (IMHO) basis upon which to evaluate the effectiveness of a trap.

Well Karol, you want to agree to disagree but leave with a few parting shots? :rolleyes:

I think you are treating the issue too simplistically, you keep on about trap efficiency and cannot seem to understand that a robbed hive is an almost totally inefficient trap. You also don't appear to appreciate the persistence of wasps in finding a weak colony to rob.

Wasp robbing is not some chance activity, it happens with predictable regularity, particularly in fixed apiary sites, come this time of year. Wasps have been seriously robbing for 2-3 weeks now round here, at all sites. My traps went out once wasps were getting past reduced entrances, and those traps are filling rapidly with wasps.

Once robbing starts it's nothing to do with trapping efficiency, it's about stopping the robbing by either seriously restricting the entrances, moving the hives, or capturing the wasps that are already robbing. If trapping, beekeepers measure the effectiveness of a wasp trap by the number of wasps that it retains, and look for the pattern & bait that traps most wasps. Each wasp trapped is a wasp that will no longer rob. Doing nothing will lead to colony losses.

You appear to be confusing the efficiency of a trap in an isolated scenario before robbing starts with the effectiveness of trapping when wasps are robbing. I hope the advice you gave to those beekeepers was much, much clearer than the shifting semantics you deploy here.

OK, let's give it a rest now. I'm sure everyone else has glazed over :)
 
I'm not confusing anything DanBee. Perhaps you should read my posts a little bit wider than just this thread then you might appreciate my advocacy for integrated wasp management around hives and you might also then appreciate my advocacy for 'judicious' trapping which necessarily changes in its nature from static (interception) trapping (scout control) to dynamic (interruption) trapping to deal with wasps robbing hives (swarm and frenzied feeding). Efficiency and effectiveness are different things. I don't judge effectiveness by the number of wasps killed. I judge effectiveness by the number of hives that remain protected and safe.
 
this guy uses chicken as a bait, seems to be very effective

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FhifTGKtUQ[/url]
 
We have only been keeping bee's for the last 6 weeks and realised that wasps were going to be a big problem, as we have quite a small colony from a nuc we bought.

Bought some of the cheep and cheerful funnel traps you put in the side of a plastic bottle, sugar water and some ripe greengages as bait (as the buggers go mad for them and ruin half of them anyway) and in 2 traps we have caught lots, about a 3 inch layer in the 2ltr bottles. we put one about 3ft away from the hive down wind and the other at the bottom of a fennel plant as the wasps visit that quite often. and having spent many hours watching them, they some times scout around beneath the hive first, sometimes have a go at the hive entrance, and when the colony was getting going some wasps got in, but as the colony has increased and the entrance reduced they don't make it in any more.
The bottle traps don't catch every one, but there are significantly less wasps then when we first got the colony.
 
I came home from holiday to "swarm feeding" in my equipment shed. All my own fault, forgetting a couple of supers with stored old combs of honey. They had got dislodged and the wasps had found the half inch gap of course.
The wasps were not in the least interested in me when I ventured in to get my bee suit to start sorting. They were feasting in the abundant larder.
Resorted to burning it all and setting wasp traps in the shed.
The burning was an experience using a dustbin incinerator. Incredibly flammable of course with flames bursting through the ventilation holes and nearly starting a local wildfire.
Lesson well learnt I hope.
 

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