Wasp robbing -- except they're not.

[jenkinsbrynmair]

given your previous post that strong hives don't need reduced entrances,

They don't - never reduced entrances on any of my full colonies.
Never felt the need to have wasp traps (of whatever efficacy) scattered around my apiaries either.

 

[Karol]

They don't - never reduced entrances on any of my full colonies.
Never felt the need to have wasp traps (of whatever efficacy) scattered around my apiaries either.

All of that is as it should be. But there will be times for some beekeepers aspiring to reach such a position for a helping hand when weaker hives are sorely pressed. I'm sure you wouldn't want a fellow beek to lose a hive because of poor information.

 

[Swarm]

Taking supers off today, I had the odd opportunist trying to take advantage. They are getting no success at entrances whether nuc or full colony.
I don't put out wasp traps because I don't like killing things.

 

[Beefriendly]

What with Jenkin's underfloor entrances and Millet's tunnel entrances for hives and nucs no traps should be required in the apiary even with weak colonies.

However where they most definitely are required is my little sun trap where an odd G&T is consumed on an evening....and you have to keep checking and fish the buggers out before you take a glug. Swarm you might wish to look away from the rest of this post.
Problem now looks to be sorted....or well on the way. A rapid feeder filled with cider vinegar/ginger ale, raspberry jam and a dash of fairy liquid caught the following since been set outside this morning. The beauty of using a rapid feed is you can put the lid on at night and hence avoid trapping any moths.

 

[Hivemaker.]

The beauty of using a rapid feed is you can put the lid on at night and hence avoid trapping any moths.

Seeing the numbers it has trapped, an excellent high efficiency wasp trap.

 

[Beefriendly]

I wouldn't know if it's high or low. Around 80 wasps in 8 hours plus a load of cluster flies, 10 wasps per hour.

 

[Swarm]

I did a fair bit of killing as a kid, I used to have great fun sitting on the coal bunker with a Marvel tin half full of jammy water. Smack the lid on, shake, repeat. I don't know what it is, maybe life feels more precious as you get older. The way I look at it, the bees are coping perfectly well so why would I attract more wasps, when they are posing no problem, only to kill them? Also, there is a beautiful Hornet nest not far away and I'd hate to harm one of those.

 

[Beefriendly]

I mainly agree with you...... but when they come between a man and his drink there is only so much you can take.
I would be delighted to see native hornets. We simply haven't had them or seen them around here for years and years.

 

[Swarm]

Until last year I'd only ever seen one in flight, since them I've seen quite a few and in different areas which is great news until you look on beekeeping websites and see 'sold out' on their Hornet traps!!
I even had a treat on a road in Pontypridd when a Hornet took one of those huge Hover flies out of the air, landed in the road and proceeded to bite its head off.

 

[Swarm]

There you go

 

[beebopper]

I mainly agree with you...... but when they come between a man and his drink there is only so much you can take.
I would be delighted to see native hornets. We simply haven't had them or seen them around here for years and years.

Saw one take out a wasp a couple of days ago.

 

[DanBee]

I think some of this discussion misses the point of what beekeepers try to achieve. There seems to be a concern that adding traps to an apiary risks making robbing worse than having no traps at all. This doesn't seem logical.

For the beekeeper, the purpose of a wasp trap is to deflect or deter wasps from robbing hives, ideally by trapping as many as possible. They are already attracted to the hive(s), so adding the trap is not adding a novel attractant in itself. We also appreciate that the robbing wasps are doomed, as nests collapse for winter, so there are a finite number in the vicinity and a finite limit to the robbing period.

Our fear is for colonies (particularly small ones) that cannot kill or repel the wasps, and will thus be stripped of stores. Technically, these colonies are low efficiency wasp traps - they attract the wasps, reward them, then let them go. Given how wasps will target apiaries (due to HM's constant 'honey plume') and then concentrate on the least well defended hives, beekeepers view the success of a trap by the numbers of wasps it retains. Every wasp trapped is one less wasp to rob hives.

Take away the traps - even the 100% efficient ones - and the apiary will still be a huge wasp magnet. The traps themselves are not responsible for attracting the wasps, the hives are. Even a low efficiency trap is better than nothing, and will be reducing the robbing problem (regardless of however many wasps it lets go) by simply taking a certain number of wasps out of the robbing equation.

For my money, these 'vaso trap' hornet trap tops on a 2lb jar with ~ 2" of 50:50 ambrosia and fermented honey washings is doing a grand job of hoovering up the wasps in my mating, nuc, and production apiaries. Currently having to empty them every 3-7 days as they fill up.

You do need to check them for hornets, but as long as you do this regularly then you can fish them out alive; the hornets have the strength and stability to climb onto the crust of wasps. Incidentally, you can just pop the lid off and offer a finger for the hornet to climb out on.

Her only concern will be to get free of the syrup, clean herself, and depart; you will get a close encounter with a fascinating insect. Usual caveat applies to handling stinging insects calmly away from their nest: Better drowned than duffers, if not duffers won't drown

 

[Newbeeneil]

Saw a tussle between a bee and a hornet whilst tending a hive.
The hornet had grabbed the bee but was unable to dispatch it due to its position. The bee seemed to be attached to the hornets chest and the hornet was unable to sting or bite the bee.
They spent about 10 minutes rolling around on the ground in front of the hive before the hornet gave up an flew off leaving the bee on the ground..... one up for the bees!

 

[Karol]

I think some of this discussion misses the point of what beekeepers try to achieve. There seems to be a concern that adding traps to an apiary risks making robbing worse than having no traps at all. This doesn't seem logical.

It may not seem logical but it is nevertheless true where low efficiency traps are concerned.

For the beekeeper, the purpose of a wasp trap is to deflect or deter wasps from robbing hives,

Agreed.

ideally by trapping as many as possible.

I would clarify this to say "ideally by trapping all those wasps naturally attracted by the hives that come into the vicinity of the hives".

They are already attracted to the hive(s), so adding the trap is not adding a novel attractant in itself.

Would you stand open dishes of honey, fondant, syrup etc on the top of your hives? Would this be adding novel attractants to the apiary?

We also appreciate that the robbing wasps are doomed, as nests collapse for winter, so there are a finite number in the vicinity and a finite limit to the robbing period.

But the issue here is what I would call 'wasp pressure'. Single scouts that are batted away by strong hives with correctly constructed entrances in the absence of traps and other superfluous sources of attraction represent little if any 'wasp pressure' on the hive. This is the ideal situation.

Adding extraneous attractants to the apiary including 'low efficiency' traps increases 'wasp pressure' because it draws wasps into the area that would otherwise not remain in the area having not been able to feed successfully in the area. If the 'wasp pressure' around the hives becomes too intense then the hives are at real risk of being overcome.

Our fear is for colonies (particularly small ones) that cannot kill or repel the wasps, and will thus be stripped of stores. Technically, these colonies are low efficiency wasp traps - they attract the wasps, reward them, then let them go. Given how wasps will target apiaries (due to HM's constant 'honey plume') and then concentrate on the least well defended hives, beekeepers view the success of a trap by the numbers of wasps it retains.

Not the numbers but the percentage and that is the crux of understanding effective protection of hives.

Every wasp trapped is one less wasp to rob hives.

True but every wasp that escapes after feeding will more than compensate for the one that was 'retained' by recruiting far greater numbers.

Take away the traps - even the 100% efficient ones - and the apiary will still be a huge wasp magnet.

Not as huge as you might think. If scouting wasps can't feed successfully they will go elsewhere and take their colleagues with them. For as long as they get fed and escape they'll keep coming back in greater numbers.

The traps themselves are not responsible for attracting the wasps, the hives are.

Can't agree with this statement DanBee. By definition a trap has to attract wasps to catch them irrespective of their efficiency.

Even a low efficiency trap is better than nothing, and will be reducing the robbing problem (regardless of however many wasps it lets go) by simply taking a certain number of wasps out of the robbing equation.

That's just not the case. You will be far far better of not having any low efficiency traps at all at the hive and rely on colony strength and correctly constructed entrances.

For my money, these 'vaso trap' hornet trap tops on a 2lb jar with ~ 2" of 50:50 ambrosia and fermented honey washings is doing a grand job of hoovering up the wasps in my mating, nuc, and production apiaries. Currently having to empty them every 3-7 days as they fill up.

The tell tale is that you are having to empty them every few days. IMHO that's far too many unnecessary wasps in and around the hive and a considerable risk to whoever has to handle the traps.

I've met too many beekeepers and pest controllers for that matter that have ceased keeping bees or working as pest controllers because of severe reactions to vespine stings. The NHS is stretched beyond belief. The last thing it needs is more casualties. Using a twig instead of a finger might be more prudent

 

[yeogi75]

I am being wiped out by wasps, eight hives in a row at one place and two have been wiped out and starting on the next, I didn't put traps out because I didn't want to encourage them, but made little difference, site 2 have nucs with this years queens in six out of ten nucs wiped out entrances all one bee space but still clearing out hive by hive, end of this week will see no nucs left brought a few home just surviving but the wasp are finding them at home as well, will it stoop them if I shut up the bees for a couple of days.

 

[Millet]

I am being wiped out by wasps, eight hives in a row at one place and two have been wiped out and starting on the next, I didn't put traps out because I didn't want to encourage them, but made little difference, site 2 have nucs with this years queens in six out of ten nucs wiped out entrances all one bee space but still clearing out hive by hive, end of this week will see no nucs left brought a few home just surviving but the wasp are finding them at home as well, will it stoop them if I shut up the bees for a couple of days.

Move them it is your only option by the sound of things..tunnel entrances stop the problem before it starts but if they are robbing yours in a feeding frenzy it might be to late for the tunnel entrances..

 

[yeogi75]

trouble is they are on double brood and all my sites are affected I cannot feed until they have stopped and have no where to put them

 

[Beefriendly]

trouble is they are on double brood and all my sites are affected I cannot feed until they have stopped and have no where to put them

Not good news.
I'd knock them all down to single brood to concentrate the bees. It's possible you have too few bees inside to police double brood. Make some of Millet's long tunnel entrances ( or Jenkins' underfloor entrances) and see what happens. Make some similar long tube entrances for the nucs as Millet has described before.
Also wash your hives outsides to remove any scent that may be attracting them. Do NOT feed any syrup in the hives...that is a big attractant.
Rather make up some open feeders with cider vinegar/jam ginger ale and stick them near the hivs/nucs. The wasp will go for this as it's easier...let the traps start doing their job. You might pull through.

Have a look at Dan Bees post above this with his picture of a high efficiency wasp trap.
The open traps work much better than the one's with hole entrances...but be careful as they are indiscriminate in attracting hornets and moths as well.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I am being wiped out by wasps, eight hives in a row at one place and two have been wiped out and starting on the next, I didn't put traps out because I didn't want to encourage them, but made little difference, site 2 have nucs with this years queens in six out of ten nucs wiped out entrances all one bee space but still clearing out hive by hive, end of this week will see no nucs left brought a few home just surviving but the wasp are finding them at home as well, will it stoop them if I shut up the bees for a couple of days.

Can you move the hives 3 feet back or forwards and close up for a couple of days. On each hive site put a wasp trap where the hive entrance used to be...a high efficiency one that won't allow wasps to escape...Is that worth a try?

 

[Millet]

Can you move the hives 3 feet back or forwards and close up for a couple of days. On each hive site put a wasp trap where the hive entrance used to be...a high efficiency one that won't allow wasps to escape...Is that worth a try?

It does not need to be high efficiency... any trap will work.. if it was my hives/nucs and i could not move them i would use the bottle traps all day long..funny enough i am doing the same with two Nucs in my Mothers garden... the Nucs are cracking but the bottle traps are full of flies and wasps.

I also have two waspbanes at my other spot and they do catch wasps and flies and loads of mothes..