varroa tray in or out?

[itma]

Of course they can die of the cold if they are low in numbers....pop some in the deep freeze and see if they are alive a week later.

But in colony-type numbers, and with adequate stores (fuel) availability, bees can survive domestic-freezer-type temperatures can't they?

 

[REDWOOD]

Of course they can die of the cold if they are low in numbers....pop some in the deep freeze and see if they are alive a week later.

probably not, however I don't keep my hives in a freezer and if they are low in numbers then what are they doing in a full size hive when they should have been in a nuc or united before the winter

 

[Hivemaker.]

But in colony-type numbers, and with adequate stores (fuel) availability, bees can survive domestic-freezer-type temperatures can't they?

Thats why i wrote low in numbers...or even returning foragers getting chilled and dying from the cold, to the statement that bees do not die of the cold.

 

[Hivemaker.]

probably not, however I don't keep my hives in a freezer and if they are low in numbers then what are they doing in a full size hive when they should have been in a nuc or united before the winter

Pop a mini nuc of bees in the freezer then.

 

[itma]

... . Trouble is I cant make my mind up either. My mentor swears by leaving them in after loosing 12 out of 16 colonies a couple of years ago when it went down to -18. My thoughts are i'll take them out but if it drops to that sort of temperature again i'll pop em back in and then take em out again but thats now three answers! Right or wrong who knows. Its always a bit of a guess this beekeeping lark!

Dave W

Bees don't die of the cold only starvation it's no guess just fact.

Of course they can die of the cold if they are low in numbers....pop some in the deep freeze and see if they are alive a week later.

But in colony-type numbers, and with adequate stores (fuel) availability, bees can survive domestic-freezer-type temperatures can't they?

Thats why i wrote low in numbers...or even returning foragers getting chilled and dying from the cold, to the statement that bees do not die of the cold.

So, after that diversion, it seems to have been accepted that -18C shouldn't have been responsible for killing off 12/16 of Dave's mentor's colonies -- *IF* they were of normal strength and adequately provided with stores -- despite the mesh floors being open.

 

[REDWOOD]

Pop a mini nuc of bees in the freezer then.

Ok got your point, but I was just trying to explain that a colony of bees in a normal winter will not die of the cold if they have enough stores. Some strains of honey bee will survive colder winters than others and mold caused by condensation is not a good thing.

 

[Hivemaker.]

What would you class as normal strength...couple or more brood boxes packed out with Italian bees...five frames of AMM in a standard national deep, a five frame nuc. Why all the insulation on some hives if its not needed. Matchsticks under crown boards should keep them nice and cold, plus dry.

 

[REDWOOD]

2010 2011 was a cold winter, I lost an orange tree that was 40 years old a few palm trees and a grape vine, thought my bees where cream cracked and was amazed to see them up and flying in the spring, on doing a quick first inspection there was no damp and bees doing fine a fellow beekeeper with 30 years experience with 7 colonies and he lost 6, kept the old inspection boards in to keep them warm and fed fondant all winter he told me. So I will go on my experiences and leave them out

 

[Hivemaker.]

2010 2011 was a cold winter, a fellow beekeeper with 30 years experience with 7 colonies and he lost 6, kept the old inspection boards in to keep them warm and fed fondant all winter he told me. So I will go on my experiences and leave them out

What a silly thing to do,wrap them up to keep them warm...he should of kept them cold and they would of survived no problem...if they were strong and healthy of course.

 

[itma]

What a silly thing to do,wrap them up to keep them warm...he should of kept them cold and they would of survived no problem...if they were strong and healthy of course.

Maybe its mead tasting time?

 

[Hivemaker.]

Maybe its mead tasting time?

Or Dewars

 

[REDWOOD]

No mead here, still fermenting,

 

[madasafish]

As a new keeper in 2010 my bees survived -18C in a TBH - bottom board in - and 2011 -18C again.. bottom board in... But then I insulate roofs.

 

[oliver90owner]

As a new keeper in 2010 my bees survived -18C in a TBH - bottom board in - and 2011 -18C again.. bottom board in... But then I insulate roofs.

As a slightly older hand at the hobby, mine survived both winters - some with a board partly in (only for the coldest period), some with no board at all. Poly and timber 14 x 12 Nationals, Dartington, poly nucs and timber nuc (with 6mm ply sides) and a couple timber nationals with solid floors (vented only between the floor and the brood).

One lost early on for something or a mouse (first time for a mouse in a hive for over ten years) and another due to starvation. They largely had to survive all on their own, most with no intervention from me due to health issues.

 

[itma]

... Why all the insulation on some hives if its not needed. Matchsticks under crown boards should keep them nice and cold, plus dry.

It is not accurate to suggest that whatever fails to kill bees must be good for them.

Bees (enough, well-provisioned, etc) can survive in appalling conditions.
But that doesn't mean those must be the ideal conditions!

Through the winter, the bees food/energy consumption will be minimised if they are kept at a steady 5 to 10C.
Warmer or colder, they need more stores. (According to Seeley.)

Then there's dampness to consider. Apart from damp significantly increasing the stores consumption simply to keep warm (damp air and hive materials conduct more heat away than a dryer environment), dampness encourages many disease pathogens, quite apart from deterioration of the hive materials.
A well-insulated (closed) crownboard should minimise condensation dripping onto the cluster (which would be the worst place for it).

Excessive insulation, keeping the hive above +10C, would prevent the bees clustering and thus *increase* the stores consumption (1 degree too hot increases consumption by much more than 1 degree too cold).
However, when spring is just around the corner, you then want to get the hive temperature up and increase brooding.

There is no reason that any one hive configuration (insulation, etc) should be optimal for each of autumn bedding-down, winter duration, and the spring restart when those situations are considered individually.
If you want to avoid reconfiguring insulation, bottom boards, etc during the "off-season" then you must choose your compromise - and while it may not be precisely optimal for any individual situation, you'd expect to choose something that gave great margins of safety throughout.

I tend towards an open floor through winter, and top insulation fitted and removed 'late'. I'd consider temporarily inserting the bottom board if I thought the bees were a bit slow starting - however that would be simply my own gut feeling of how things were going (and balancing what I was seeing with my bees against what others were reporting).
But my mind is (I hope) open to learning of the justifications behind other ideas.



// I do fully admit that I'm still at the "trying to do something logical" stage of beekeeping, whereas many others have progressed to the "you may say its daft, but it has worked for me and my xx hives for xx years, and I can see no reason to change" stage!
{Values of xx from 15 to 40 seem typical! )