Varroa count during Apiguard treatment - any significance?

[Flatters]

I am with Alanf as to how I count the mites. I did one hive today and it had 155 on it but that was from Tuesday. The larger colony only had 11 on it since Tuesday. I use cooking oil on the board and put enough on to ensure it is stick enough to hold anything that drops on it and it makes cleaning the board very easy.

 

[chycarne]

fascinating and useful, if it is any help our treatment combo is, apiguard now as per instructions, "hive clean" in middish winter, and super drone trap at the 1st inspection in the next season. seems to work so far, when it stops working to our (and the bees) satisfaction we will adapt again... counts this year - range 10 - 30...

 

[BBG]

oooops wont do it then will leave old one in for a extra week or 2

That was exactly the route followed by beekeepers who produced resistant mites. The "If one does a good job, we'll leave it on longer or use two" - train of thought.

Here's a little info of use I hope:

http://www.beedata.com/news/varroa-reistance-uk.htm

I think Finman has the right approach in basically saying we know colonies have mites without looking so treat.

Yes it's nice to estimate numbers but times one square inch population by square inchage of varroa tray.

In a nutshell, we're trying to keep varroa down to a level at which the bees can cope.

Eradication is not yet in sight.

HM's Thymol treatment produced wonderful results for us but we would not go beyond his recommendations.

Hope all goes well.

 

[Bob Bee]

That was exactly the route followed by beekeepers who produced resistant mites. The "If one does a good job, we'll leave it on longer or use two" - train of thought.

Here's a little info of use I hope:

http://www.beedata.com/news/varroa-reistance-uk.htm

I think Finman has the right approach in basically saying we know colonies have mites without looking so treat.

Yes it's nice to estimate numbers but times one square inch population by square inchage of varroa tray.

In a nutshell, we're trying to keep varroa down to a level at which the bees can cope.

Eradication is not yet in sight.

HM's Thymol treatment produced wonderful results for us but we would not go beyond his recommendations.

Hope all goes well.

Careful not to confuse Thymol with Pyrethroids.........
Sticking to the correct dosage as stated by the manufacturer and confirmed by FERA is a good move.the idea that bunging an extra one in because it seems like a good idea if very flawed.

 

[BBG]

Careful not to confuse Thymol with Pyrethroids.........
Sticking to the correct dosage as stated by the manufacturer and confirmed by FERA is a good move.the idea that bunging an extra one in because it seems like a good idea if very flawed.

No confusion - should have made it very clear it was an aside/analogy to state that it is best to stay with manufacturer instructions.

And the in bold wording is exactly what I said. In so many words.

 

[richardbees]

"DO NOT Feed varroa to tropical fish, thymol upsets their metabolism"

Icanhopit deserves a free go on the dodgems for posting that little bit of research product!

 

[oliver90owner]

Yep, yet another beekeeper not aware of the differing modes of 'iciding' mites. Resistance to thymol is very highly unlikely and certainly not like the case of pyrethroids. The mode of action of thymol (and organic acids) will not lead to resistance, as did the previous treatments.

Like suggesting a small dose of carbon monoxide over a long period would induce immunity to carbon monoxide poisoning for humans. It just won't happen.

A further treatment with thymol will not overdose the bees any more than the first. There is no recommendation of removal periods between treatments. If the first failed due to temperature per eg, a later repeat is allowable. What one must adhere to is not to overdose at any particular time, or damage to the colony can result.

So most definitely not a case of 'That was exactly the route followed by beekeepers who produced resistant mites.'

Proceeding to virtual eradication must be better than the previous 'reduced dosing' which was the problem with the pyrethroids (not overdosing, which would have damaged the colony). Fluvalinates are toxic to bees at higher doses as it is used as an insecticide.

 

[BBG]

Not what I said.

Read the bit that says I should have made it clear the thymol was an aside.

The ref to not doing more than what Hivemaker recommends is nothing to do with thinking it might result in resistance.

It means I wouldn't do anything other than what Hivemaker recommends. Simple as that.

If you need this much spoon-feeding, it does not bode well for your future or that of your bees.

In addition, this:

'That was exactly the route followed by beekeepers who produced resistant mites.'

refers to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOBY-3652 View Post
oooops wont do it then will leave old one in for a extra week or 2

 

[Nic Rhodes]

Irrelevant to me what mite levels are, I know they are there so Thymol now and Oxalic in dec / jan. If high or low the medication will be the same. I have a board and peep regularly but this does not effect what I do.

 

[BBG]

Irrelevant to me what mite levels are, I know they are there so Thymol now and Oxalic in dec / jan. If high or low the medication will be the same. I have a board and peep regularly but this does not effect what I do.

Don't use OA though.

Why avoid Tesco for sugar??

 

[The Apprentices]

In the past I have found that the gel dries out well before the girls can eat it all.

This year I am NOT treating with anything, Not seen much Varroa on any of my OMF floors. Not even 7.

But I will treat them to a dribble of Oxalic in late December.
21 Hives now and on the up each year. Two Apiaries and back garden.
Bob.

If you are not treating Bob then any live varroa that get disslodged and drop will simply walk away or regain access to the bees again and this is probably why your not seeing them.

Many open floors have rear gaps where the bees can get in which is defeating the aim.

My last hive clean done as per instructions using a solid floor showed litterally hundreds if not thousands of live young varroa walking around and the next two days they were still alive, so this proves one thing, the bees have done their job of preening themselves and knocking the mites off but the potion did not kill them, where as the oil drawer does.

A count of say 500 in a colony of 20,000 bees is not a lot in perecentages but how many others walked away is a total mystery and not of much use if you don't catch all that drop.

My floors are hermatically sealed, made from much finer welded No.8 mesh which makes it much harder for the baby mites to find a purchase, which the wider surface on on other floors aids,,,,,,, to prevent mites and bees coming into contact after seperation and filled with oil and a couple of drops of Wintergreen which kills them on contact, so the beggers don't walk away once they are in the drawer.

The oil also aids the cleaning up process as the detritis does tend to set hard on the dry correx surface, the oil also aids finding and taking samples and preserves specimins exactly where they drop.

Cushman's Oxalic mixing.

1kg of sugar 1Lt water 75 grams of oxalic acid £ 1.50
Same 50ml drizzle for each hive.

If the beggers fall you need to catch them all.

 

[The Apprentices]

Just treated two of my hives at the moment and will do the others at weekend when I have made some ekes.

Mite drop on the two hives low, but early days though. I do wonder if the bees are adapting to resist the mite, maybe culling thier own drones or grooming themselves better to remove the varroa. It is normal for an animal to adapt to a change in a situation. It is possible even that perhaps our interference with Thymol and OA is now actually slowing down that adaptation down. We may have been helpful in the early years when varroa came to our shores, but now we have become a hinderence.

It has been recorded that some bees have been seen to eat the heads off their open brood in persuit of the mites that acompany the larva in the cells, the carbohydrates gained in this passtime doesn't go to waste as the bees will reuse that energy again somewhere else within the colony.

It has also been noted that colonies which build their own comb seem to have less varroa due to the smaller cell sizes they will make if given the choice, so let them control the integrity within the hive.

The answer to this problem will probably be very simple and come from the bees themselves and then the host and parasite might be controlled rather than destroyed and able to live in symbiosis, like many paired entities within our lives.

My idea of training the bees to clean and administering a regular dose of encouragement and natural detterents like natural oils instead of the boom and bust chemical cosh we have adapted could well proove more effective against the overall problem.

 

[Nose Ma]

"This year I am NOT treating with anything, Not seen much Varroa on any of my OMF floors. Not even 7."

I'd echo TA's thoughts here. I had three from general OMF testing, then with apigaurd on well over 100.
Also, I'd agree with the points about stopping them walking around and getting back on the bees. I lack his woodworking skill, but still spray some sunflower oil on the OMF insert tray to make it sticky. Before I did that I sometimes found mites walking around, I assume trying to find the hive. I have no idea how many succeeded.
TA's approach looks to be the most effective.

 

[The Apprentices]

Id be interested to see any science on this just because it seems logical. Apiguard is in the same ball game as Oxalic and Formic Acid. Totally different than fluvalonite and coumophos, which bees build up resistance to, so unlikely to go the same way as parethyroid. The Vita website states its very unlikely so that immediately makes me suspiciouse.

There is some weight to be gained in science but only if the correct protocols are adheard to, and the funding to the bees problem is pretty sparse to say the least, and alternative reaserch almost obsolete.

There are armies of watchers in laymans eyes/terms but not many beekeepers with the technical qualifications for their peers to review.

The parathyroid angle is well known about in human terms where certain chemicals do have a direct influence upon humans, myself being a sufferer of parathyoidism in the past due to certain chemicals in our every day foodstuffs.

From what I have read so far, I believe that many of these chemicals could be effecting the bees immune systems so the developing immune systems of the young larva are more open to attack from the viruses that the varroa carry but are themselves immune to, a sort of bee AIDS.

It is absolutely ridiculous that our tax dollars to the sum of 600 milion in tackling Libya so far and not a glimmer in comparable funding for bees problems, which are mostly being caused by us.

 

[The Apprentices]

Don't quite follow the calculations. If 5 weeks of Apiguard produced 100 per day, that would be 3,500 mites. Following with Apivar saw 500 plus 16 days of 200, that's 3,700 and small numbers left. If there was an initial higher drop that you have not included, then 60% but the figures you quote run under 50%.

The manufacturers of Apiguard themselves claim 93% average on http://www.vita-europe.com at /products/Apiguard/#Apiguardaprovensuccess charting 88-97% in different trials.

Other studies have found lower success rates, a quick google trawl shows 56% here on http://www.apimondiafoundation.org at /foundation/files/141.pdf an average which is much closer to MM's experience with a single hive.

To return to ksjs's request "if anybody does know whether mite count during treatment can be used as any sort of a population indicator I'd be interested to hear":

There is evidence that a full Apiguard treatment within the manufacturers guidelines could drop anywhere from below 50% to 97% of the Varroa. The practical reading of this asking around my local BKA is that you have to treat for 4 weeks at least to cover all the mites lurking in sealed brood. If the drop has not tailed off by the fourth week, you might still have as many mites again remaining in the hive.

If the drop was very low anyway it's not a problem but if you have thousands over four weeks and the drop has not tailed off then your bees still have a mite problem. Leaving the Apiguard remains in for a couple of weeks longer might help, but it's not a complete remedy. You do have to consider further and varied treatment such as alternative treatments now or repeated oxalic treatments as soon as they are broodless.

That's pretty much as I'd see it until a better strategy comes along.

And watch the initial percentages start dropping from now on, the claimed 90% must have had some sort of trail to those figures.

The plain oxalic treatment described on the Cushman site is cheap to make and works quite well from a direct route and five drops of Narural oils in the syrup works from the indirect route, from both sides.

Natural cell regression is one route, hygenics through encouragement is what the drizzle method is trying to do, but I feel the duration is too wide and the bees need a series of more regular encouragement but without the man made chemical coshes.

Syrup mix = 4kg sugar, 2 litres of water, 5 drops of Patchouli or Sinamon leaf oil.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Same 50ml drizzle for each hive.

Not always the case though is it.

 

[The Apprentices]

Not always the case though is it.

No its not.

The stated dose of between 10 - 20 ml on a severley varrosed colony I have found is not enough and why I stated 50ml the same as STB and Cushman does.

The capped brood are not going to get the benefit of the treatment, which is quoted Entirely Exterior to the bees body, in other words it is the bees that are doing the work not the substance, plain old syrup and rhubarb leaf juice will suffice in this instance at £1.55 per litre.

The Brochure also says that the dropped mites starve to death, I have found this not to be the case and many actually find there way back into the hive and onto the bees even with a mesh floor, but not with an oil drawer they don't get the chance.

I personally find the leaflet a tad missleading, it pictures a tiny hive behind a much Larger hand and bottle of treatment, this is subliminal advertising at its very best quantifying the large prices asked.

The mites don't take a day off, they don't need to make their own heat to keep warm and the list goes on, I personally feel that regular unobtrusive training and preening need to be kept up in order of getting on top of the problem, a cease in controlling these creatures only gives them the upper hand and a chance to regenerate, like I mentioned earlier, Boom amd Blitz.

Care to ellabourate further?

 

[Hivemaker.]

I would just stick to 5ml of 3.2% per full seam of bees,some colonys may only have 4 or 5 seams of bees,so pouring 50ml of oxalic over them is not the best idea,the oxalic also eats away the mouth parts of the mites,so of course they are going to starve to death,and of course it's supposed to be used when no brood present.

But of course i no longer use the substance anyway,not needed.

 

[mbc]

"There is some weight to be gained in science but only if the correct protocols are adheard to, and the funding to the bees problem is pretty sparse to say the least, and alternative reaserch almost obsolete."
Most universities have at least some research aimed at apiculture and the honey bee is certainly the most studied insect on the planet, however I would agree most discoveries relating to honey bees have been made by "armies of watchers in laymans eyes/terms "

 

[drstitson]

3k

"I would just stick to 5ml of 3.2% per full seam of bees"





3k