Varoa Mite Drop

[Arfermo]

Arfermo - here's a quote for you as an example:

"è da un mese preciso che a cadenza prima di 3/4 gg e ora di 6/7 gg sto trattando col sublimato...ma la stronza continua a cadere"

roughly translates as:

"After a month of treating with sublimation first every 3/4 days and now every 6/7 .... but the ******* keep falling"

can't find the previous post where someone mentioned 13 times.

That sounds very much like a one-off situation experienced by a novice with little or no common sense between his ears. I can believe it being quoted 13 times or more for that very reason but do not believe that it is common practice ANYWHERE and for that reason perhaps should not be referred in this forum unless accompanied with a definitive caveat aginst such practices. Sublimation is still best in my view for the reasons I gave but of course one needs to buy or borrow the equipment. Thxxxxs price is extortionate but there is a Canadian version equally as good at around half the price including shipping. I have the link if anybody wants it - via pm.

 

[itma]

...
A new British varroa booklet is meshy text. It is difficult to find out what to do with hives. Tens of pages. In Finland two pages tell, what beekeepers should do. There is no need to offer 20 different methods ...

... Since starting to work with bees I have met a number of beekeepers who are well read and well travelled in the world of beekeeping. They first encountered the use of oxalic acid as a varroa management technique a number of years ago and have been using it and Thymol (including ApiLifeVar) as elements of integrated pest managment. ...

Since the British approach is IPM, using a very wide diversity of control methods to be selected appropriately to the conditions, I can't see how it would be possible to supply useful practical detail in two pages.

Would the FERA booklet benefit from a prominent 1-page 'Executive Summary' of practical advice addressed to non-technical beekeepers? (followed by details, options, explanations and justifications)
Definitely.
But the UK Civil Service mentality is no longer about lecturing people about what they specifically should do. We have it in human health advice too!

 

[Skyhook]

Since the British approach is IPM, using a very wide diversity of control methods to be selected appropriately to the conditions, I can't see how it would be possible to supply useful practical detail in two pages.

Quite. I think Finmans book would be page 1- thymol after harvest; page 2 OA in winter.

Job done

 

[oliver90owner]

Itma,

Youv'e not been on the forum long. There are a lot out there that advocate oxalic acid trickling in January as the only treatment necessary for the whole season. Presumably they may use thymol, after the harvest, to get them through until the next oxalic acid trickle.

Certainly, in my view, not the message to give out to new beeks, who then think the 'one stop' treatment is all that is needed. I'm afraid it quite doesn't work like that every time. It leads to 'heads in the sand' and followed by pleas on here as to how/why their varroa loads got so high or what to do about them. There have been reports of 8000 mite drops - and the beek wasn't even aware they might be above the safety threshold? A rediculous state of affairs after twenty years experience of the mite in this island. Surely this (mite checking) should be the priority. Recovering damaged colonies is not the better route over maintaining undamaged colonies.

The fact that some colonies can sustain those loadings is indicative of the resilience of some strains of honey bee, Not all would recover from that sort of loading.

It (oxalic acid trickling) may be suficient for those that are experienced enough to intervene, if needed, and may be enough to go from low varroa to a heavy infestation by August, it may be enough for those that can actually recognise the signs and symptoms of an increasing varroa load.

Nor does it take into account the repeated doses their queen will be getting (the workers are of little issue as they will all be gone and replaced by May) as some may not wish to 'quite so regularly' change the queen.

Oxalic acid is regarded as a necessity by some, but others apparently can easily get their colonies through the whole year without so much as a single trickle (I haven't used it for about 5 years - I have it ready if I think they really do need a dose, However).

Some use a thymol treatment regime and do not use oxalic acid at all and their bees clearly benefit from that, in general health levels (nosema/varroa/acarine) but also with the reduced risk of losing nosemic colonies (those that have the infection, but would otherwise be strong enough to throw off any outward effects in the early spring) after oxalic acid treatment.

It would appear from your post that you are like me and employ any one, or several, of the IPM alternatives. I treated with oxalic acid (spraying and sublimation before trickling), long before FERA entertained the idea sufficiently to advocate it's use, in an official document. My local bee inspector used to cringe at oxalic sublimation type questions from me at any beekeeping meeting with my LBKA!

I think I personally favour the sublimation technique, even now. I don't have that many colonies (to worry over the longer time aspect of the method) and I am fully aware of the safety aspects. Sure, trickling is the better and likely safer route for most out there.

In short, I agree with your post!

Regards, RAB

 

[Finman]

Quite. I think Finmans book would be page 1- thymol after harvest; page 2 OA in winter.

Job done

page 1 is formic acid and thymol slices. Next is trickling.

Commercial thymol slices are quite expencive. Self made formic acid pads are cheap and works like thymol. You must be carefull with formic acid if you do not want to loose skin from your hands.

If the brood period is short, one kind of treament is enough. But then it suddenly hits badly back.

It is bad idea to save treaments. It surely hits sometimes and kill perhaps 1/3 of hives and weakens others.

In Canada it has been noticed with formic acid that if out temp rises over 25C, queen losses will happen up to 30%. Tin temps under 20C no queen losses happened.

I bought 76% formic acid 30 litres. The price is 30 euros. The stuff is ment to make forage to cows. There is acid to rest of my life.

Out temp should be 15C-20C. So too late done it is not effective enough.

 

[Finman]

Since the British approach is IPM, using a very wide diversity of control methods to be selected appropriately


- I know that that is not a reason. Reason is that you hang all history carbage with you that even the most old fashioned guys pay their society payment.

- and some powefull companies want to make business with "allowed products".

- free is not worth nothing, we say

i have teached very many years varroa treatments on British forums. I have had mites in my hives almost 30 years. The first hive I killed for varroa in year 1982. Varroa has made sometimes very bad works in my yards. That is why I want to tell others that take care about your hives and do not believe miracles.

But even if I haven given a half page link to practical information, I think that no one reads it.

Here a certaing gang just whipp their mouth without knowledge and they have no idea how serious are disease issues. ..

But now it has been found a worse enemy to bees: sun and snow! ....wow!

.but the worst what I have met are the Irish: "we have discussed here with my friend that Ireland does not need oxalic acid". Second "There is no so accurate balance in Ireland that we can weigth the acid". "it is against UK law". But in USA: DO NOTHING! Wait, eilians are coming!

As far as I understand, Ireland is not under British legistation. Neither are Welsh or Scotland under English legistation.
.

 

[Teemore]

"but the worst what I have met are the Irish: "we have discussed here with my friend that Ireland does not need oxalic acid". Second "There is no so accurate balance in Ireland that we can weigth the acid". "it is against UK law". But in USA: DO NOTHING! Wait, eilians are coming!

Finman - I think you have been talking to some of the same people that I have!! You may have heard the saying: "You cannot teach an old dog new tricks" Unfortunately it applies to some beekeepers in Ireland. It is a slow process to change mindsets.

 

[Nose Ma]

http://bit.ly/tdqbhk

Old dog, new tricks.

 

[itma]

Since the British approach is IPM, using a very wide diversity of control methods to be selected appropriately...

- I know that that is not a reason. Reason is that you hang all history carbage with you that even the most old fashioned guys pay their society payment. {}
- and some powefull companies want to make business with "allowed products".
- free is not worth nothing, we say

But there I think you are straying away from fact and into 'personal opinion'.
Fact is that the FERA booklet discusses and promotes 'Biotechnical controls' ("Advantage: Inexpensive or free" - page 16) before discussing varroacides, both those authorised and those without UK approval.

To me the IPM approach seems both logical and justified, with monitoring at intervals throughout the year, and taking action as appropriate, rather than giving any simple routine calender-based treatment and trusting to its effectiveness.



To go back to the original posting, Liam has had an unsuccessful Bayvarol treatment.
My inexperienced suggestion is that he should monitor his mite death rate, over a total period of something like a week - using a plain (not sticky) inspection board.
And if he has a significant problem (indicated by more than 7 or 8 dead mites/day/hive at this time of the year), he needs to be considering what treatment he can apply soonish. And if he gets much more than 8/day from a hive at this point, then I believe he really does have to treat soon, and hitting hard - to increase the chance of that colony surviving the winter. Which, given where we are in the year, could justify an Oxalic treatment.
If he wants to, he could test his mites to quantify Bayvarol resistance, but that's not of practical importance to him at this point. (Maybe interesting for his other local beekeepers though ...)

Does that sound about right?

 

[Finman]

,

many things yes...

mite came to Finland from Russia about 1975 perhaps. We planned "non hive zone" on the eastern border. For that reason many took his hives and transported to westward.

Discussion derived from warnings what Russian beekeepers informed Finland: take care, mite is coming. When when we discussed here what to do, mite had allready here.
In those days there were no method what to do with mites. Some said drone culling.

Mite sweeped often the whole yard and the beekeeprd did not know what heck happened in the hives.


when I got mites, my mother in law visited in Germany and brought to me Perizin. It was not allowed here. Paradise Honey owner told that he asked permission to bye Perizin from Germany but it was denied. He lost 250 hives.
The year was 1987. I wonder how beekeepers managed hives 10 year. Perizin was allowed in the year 1988.

My best friend had 60 hives and he lost 30 hives in one winter. I offered my Perizin to him for free, but he said "maybe next year".

I have met big losses later because of unsuccesfull treatments.

Our beekeeper number has reduced radically. One big reason is painfull mite killing.
It has been too much to many. On another hand professional beekeeping has growed and amount of honey yield has not demished.
.
A good thing in mite is that it killed bad beekeepers too. Many kept hives on backyard. Colonies died and new swarm arrived next summer. Many opened the hive only to take some honey. Othertwise hives may stay in peace. Hives were inhabited by "National Black Devil" named "German Black" in Europe. Now Black Devil has gone for ever.

 

[Ruary]

special! Where they have got that measure?

The Swiss has 35 g OA to 1 litre syrup = 2,7%

The Irish is 5,8 % really!

The most known is 3,5% ( 7,5 g+100g water + 100g sugar = 0,16 litre)

in Italy often 4%

if you add syrup 1,6 instead of 1,0, do you get into prison in Ireland?

.

It is an Italian mixture. We have to comply with the Iralian instructions under the animal medications directive as it is being authorised in Irelans unedre the reciprocal authorisation protocol. I am not supporting the strength just reporting what the mixture is. To quote from the leaflet 35g packet of the medicine dissolved in 500 ml of syrup and further that 100g of the 'medicine' contains 88.6g of oxalic acid dihydrate.

And, by the way, the Irish authorities take unauthorised use of medicines very seriously (after the 'angel dust' fiasco) and after detection can confiscate and destroy colonies of bees, hives, honey and wax.
In fact I heard recently that one beekeeper had his honey and wax confiscated after residue analyis of his honey showed something up.

Ruary

 

[Ruary]

It is a sad indictment of some aspects of Irish beekeeping that the 'authorities' have been so slow to accept and adopt the use of oxalic in the face of international research.

Yes, I agree.

The Federation has been trying for some time to have the authorities agree to the use of oxalic acid but were told that the full consideration of the Irish Animal Medications authority would be required before it could be licenced in Ireland.

At that time no oxalic acid treatment was actually a licenced medicine within the E.U. This meant that a full review would be required costing many thousands of Euro.

Since then, this medicine has recieved a licence in Italy, as as pyrethroid resistance has occurred the suthorites have licenced it under the reciprocal licencing protocol.

 

[Finman]

It is an Italian mixture. We have to comply with the Iralian instructions under the animal medications directive as it is being authorised in Irelans unedre the reciprocal authorisation protocol. I am not supporting the strength just reporting what the mixture is. To quote from the leaflet 35g packet of the medicine dissolved in 500 ml of syrup and further that 100g of the 'medicine' contains 88.6g of oxalic acid dihydrate.

And, by the way, the Irish authorities take unauthorised use of medicines very seriously (after the 'angel dust' fiasco) and after detection can confiscate and destroy colonies of bees, hives, honey and wax.
In fact I heard recently that one beekeeper had his honey and wax confiscated after residue analyis of his honey showed something up.

Ruary

You speak your own stories. in European Union there are quite same system to treat honey as food stuff. The tax free material flow between countries demands that. Of course there are local catastrofies conserning honey handling. That is why authorities exist.

As fas as I know, Ireland is not a "beekeeping power". There are quite few beekeepers which means that you cannot have your own research. You may drum your chest what ever but tiny is tiny.

Are your authorities mad? If the honey is not valid to market, why they destroy hives too. Here the yied and stored honey will be destroyed but not hives. ...

I hope that you do not represent those authorities. But I am afraid however.

.

 

[Finman]

.
If we talk about oxalic acid in beekeeping and in honey, European Unionrecommends that outhorietied need NOT analyse oxalic acid in honey because its amount is meaningles to human body.

In carrrots oxalic acid content is 100 times bigger than in honey.

This all has been researched several yeard ago and no one has argued against it.

 

[Finman]

.
I tried to find something new about varroa treatment fron European union.
Only new is the standard to execute research planning conserning varroa researching.

But I found very good home paces " Co-ordination in Europe of integrated control of varroa...."

Switcherland Agroscope.

I cannot link with this mobile but you find it from google.

There you see on left hand, what treatmenst the Shwich keep important.

 

[Ruary]

A
I hope that you do not represent those authorities. But I am afraid however.

.

I can re assure you that I am not a government Official.