Uniting two queenless colonies

[Anthony.]

Hi All,

We currently have two queenless colonies:

• Hive A - a nuc we purchased 2 weeks ago that unfortunately is queenless (currently 4 frames of bees with slowly reducing amount of brood)
• Hive B - A colony thats currently on a brood and a half that was an artificial swarm that we did from another colony that sadly we couldn't get a queen going ourselves. Its been about 3-4 weeks since we did the split and probably 2 weeks since we've added any queen cells or eggs. Probably 10 full frames of bees on a mix of brood/supers. Normally i would have persevered and kept adding brood /eggs but because of the colony above i've had to stop as i don't have enough brood left.

Unfortunately given we have two queenless colonies i've got back to the supplier i got the nuc from and he's going to supply a queen hopefully tomorrow.

My question is this:
Given the time of the year and us struggling for eggs/brood we are wanting to unite the above two colonies. My plan was - introduce the new queen into the stronger colony (hive b) tomorrow. Wait 1 week then unite. Unite with the weaker colony on the top (hive A) and the newspaper method.

Does the timing / approach feel sensible? Would anybody suggest uniting quicker or slower?

As always thanks in advance,

 

[Boston Bees]

Sorry, are you saying you added a queen cell 2 weeks ago to hive B? That's not nearly long enough to decide they are queenless.

Or did you add eggs 2 weeks ago? If so what did they do?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I doubt that either is queenless. Unless you can be certain, you're sending the promised new queen to her doom

 

[Anthony.]

Firstly thank you both for the response!

I should add that the nuc should have had a marked queen and we've been through 3 times extremely slowly and seen no queen, no eggs, no new brood etc. So im pretty confident that one is queenless.

Fair point on hive B.

On that basis would you put the new queen in the nuc and give hive B another week? and if still no signs then unite in the reverse(i.e. queen with nuc underneath and hive B on top?)

 

[drex]

Acceptance rates with nucs is higher than full hive. Personally I don't feel it makes much difference which hive goes on top. However if I have had to move a hive some distance to unite, I will always put that on top. I think battling their way out makes them reorient ate better

 

[pargyle]

Firstly thank you both for the response!

I should add that the nuc should have had a marked queen and we've been through 3 times extremely slowly and seen no queen, no eggs, no new brood etc. So im pretty confident that one is queenless.

It's not unusual for a marked queen to have lost her marking ... some of the marking pens really do wear off quite quickly. It would be very careless of a supplier of a nuc not to have a queen in there. Normally when a Nuc is supplied they are supplied with a laying queen and you can see eggs and brood. Did you see the queen in the Nuc when it arrived ?

I'd be inclined to seive the bees through a queen excluder if you can't find her visually ... it's not a procedure I particularly like but you really do need to be sure they are queenless before introducing a new queen.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

And it matter not a jot whether the queen goes on the top or the bottom during a paper unite. I usually put the smallest colony on top or, if one has to be moved, put that one on top.

 

[oliver90owner]

There was brood in the purchased nuc? Seems so, if you were nicking frames to check in the other colony. That suggests that there was a queen in the nuc and there is still likely one in the other colony.

If the original queen in the nuc has just stopped laying for some reason, your new queen may well be toast if introduced to either colony - without making absolutely sure the colony is Q- before introduction. A very common mishap for a new beek.

I would suggest you get one colony queen-right before even considering uniting - finding a queen in a smaller colony must be easier than in a larger one. The artificial swarm failure may still have a virgin present - any signs of polished cells awaiting imminent laying?

 

[thorn]

Anthony, whereabouts in Leeds are you? I could offer a second pair of eyes.

 

[Anthony.]

Thanks again to those who has responded.

I am pretty confident the nuc is queenless, we checked them on saturday (which was 2 weeks weeks since we picked them up) and we've been through the hive a total of 3 times really quite slowly. I appreciate theres always a chance theres a queen in there but like i said zero eggs, zero new brood.

Hive B i appreciate could very well have a queen in so I'm going to give them another week or two and see what they do, and whilst i would love to throw more eggs / early larvae in there I'm just struggling for donor brood at the moment! It was 3 weeks yesterday i did the split - how long would people advise i wait before thinking about uniting?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

It was 3 weeks yesterday i did the split - how long would people advise i wait before thinking about uniting?

at least another four weeks

 

[Anthony.]

Christ ok i was far too soon then! I think i've probably panicked and got worried about them being hopelessly queenless that i've felt i should be looking to help and step in but needed to wait and see what happens!

Thanks again