Uniting large colonies.

[Mellifera397]

I'm looking after three colonies all of which have three supers on. One of the queens produces very defensive workers that follow incessantly and sting as soon as the suit is off. I have identified the queen by inspecting the hives individually and then waiting for a response.

When I kill the defensive queen and unite should I add an extra super in addition to the existing supers and how do I unite the supers?

All advice gratefully received.

M

 

[Erichalfbee]

I am in a similar position.I reckon trying to combine with that many supers is difficult so I'm going to wait till they are down to one each.
Super under, kill queen,excluder with newspaper on; close up.
Q+ colony on top later in the evening. Leave brood to hatch in bottom box. Sort boxes in 3 weeks, keeping an eye on that top super as they will have a few stores to move. Bottom super will probably get filled with pollen but you can freeze the frames and let them have them back in the Spring.

 

[Mellifera397]

Sounds like a plan

M

 

[oliver90owner]

I don't particularly see the point of uniting large colonies. Much simpler would be to requeen, shirley (sp. just for VM).

They won't necessarily go into winter any stronger than usual and may yet swarm with an older queen in residence.

 

[Erichalfbee]

RAB.
I'm having to unite out of necessity. I have to reduce the number of boxes and one colony is horrid to work with; fly in your face,erupt from the box like a volcano.
Serves me right. I should have united before the flow. I just wanted to see how the new queens worked out and before I knew it I had brood on all the frames.
My eight boxes should be five by winter. I will be more disciplined next year!!!!
All colonies have this year's queens BTW

 

[itma]

…
I'm having to unite out of necessity. I have to reduce the number of boxes and one colony is horrid to work with; fly in your face,erupt from the box like a volcano.
Serves me right. I should have united before the flow. I just wanted to see how the new queens worked out and before I knew it I had brood on all the frames.
…

Erica, you might be interested to learn of Ben Harden's idea of how to requeen without finding the old queen …

Basically, shift the 'bad' hive away, install a "specially configured" hive for the good colony (could be a nuc colony) on the old site, give them the supers, and then shake out the bad girls when you feel like it (and the worst of the bunch have gone 'home').
You would lose some young house bees, and the brood if you didn't move that across after shaking out.
Of course, if you can find the evil Q without shaking out, everything is easier.

But the special configuration for the hive is interesting. (Perhaps!)
Floor/QX/super or 2 (completely empty)/brood/QX/the crop supers/cover/roof
The good Q & supporters are kept together in the brood box (frames not shuffled).
Arrivals at the gate have to get through the first QX, which is separated from the brood by enough space to prevent any underframe 'beard' reaching the QX.
If evil Q arrives at the entrance, she'll be excluded and considered an outsider. Not a problem for long. The worker bee-power is able to get through to cover the brood and good Q's family should be able to protect her for long enough.
It should also deal with the drones from the evil colony …
The lower QX and empty supers are only needed for the first couple of days after shaking out (maybe less with these cold nights?)

More details can be found in Ben Harden's little book "Some Alternative Pathways for the Hesitant Queen Rearer".

 

[MJBee]

Thanks Itma,
I could have done with that gem a week ago

Method copied out and in the bee folder for future reference.

 

[Mellifera397]

Is it not a little late for mating queens?

M

 

[peteinwilts]

Personally, I would not bother trying to rectify the problem this far into the season.

I would deal with it in spring when the colony's are at their smallest and most compact.

 

[Mellifera397]

Personally, I would not bother trying to rectify the problem this far into the season.

I would deal with it in spring when the colony's are at their smallest and most compact.

It's just the beekeeper who was with me got four stings after we had closed up the hive. I suspect that they will make mincemeat of us when we take off the supers.

M

 

[peteinwilts]

It's just the beekeeper who was with me got four stings after we had closed up the hive. I suspect that they will make mincemeat of us when we take off the supers.

M

stick a clearer board in there. I think T's also sell spray to clear bees out... never used it myself.

 

[beeno]

Some good bee stuff in this thread. Thanks Ericha and Itma and Mellifera for asking the question.

 

[Swarm]

Personally, I would not bother trying to rectify the problem this far into the season.

I would deal with it in spring when the colony's are at their smallest and most compact.

 

[Excession]

Personally, I would not bother trying to rectify the problem this far into the season.



I would deal with it in spring when the colony's are at their smallest and most compact.

Got my vote.

 

[whoosling]

Erica, you might be interested to learn of Ben Harden's idea of how to requeen without finding the old queen …

Basically, shift the 'bad' hive away, install a "specially configured" hive for the good colony (could be a nuc colony) on the old site, give them the supers, and then shake out the bad girls when you feel like it (and the worst of the bunch have gone 'home').
You would lose some young house bees, and the brood if you didn't move that across after shaking out.
Of course, if you can find the evil Q without shaking out, everything is easier.

But the special configuration for the hive is interesting. (Perhaps!)
Floor/QX/super or 2 (completely empty)/brood/QX/the crop supers/cover/roof
The good Q & supporters are kept together in the brood box (frames not shuffled).
Arrivals at the gate have to get through the first QX, which is separated from the brood by enough space to prevent any underframe 'beard' reaching the QX.
If evil Q arrives at the entrance, she'll be excluded and considered an outsider. Not a problem for long. The worker bee-power is able to get through to cover the brood and good Q's family should be able to protect her for long enough.
It should also deal with the drones from the evil colony …
The lower QX and empty supers are only needed for the first couple of days after shaking out (maybe less with these cold nights?)

More details can be found in Ben Harden's little book "Some Alternative Pathways for the Hesitant Queen Rearer".

excellent, could have done with this a few weeks back

 

[oliver90owner]

late for mating queens

Don't see it mentioned in this thread previously. But only just past mid-August, so no. Time lines are a good exercise; shows up possibilities and some impossibilities. You would easily see that any egg layed now could progress to a mated queen by when? (you work it out!). But the point I made was by requeening, not de-queening and rearing one from scratch. A waste of a strong colony at this point in the season. IMO. Same for Erichalfbee, I would delay uniting until much later and likely, as Peteinwilts, take them through the winter before sorting, but if the colony count must be reduced, that is a different situation and maybe needs a different plan. Thinking with blinkers on is not the way to get the best out of what you have.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

late for mating queens

Don't see it mentioned in this thread previously. But only just past mid-August, so no. Time lines are a good exercise; shows up possibilities and some impossibilities. You would easily see that any egg layed now could progress to a mated queen by when? (you work it out!). But the point I made was by requeening, not de-queening and rearing one from scratch. A waste of a strong colony at this point in the season. IMO. Same for Erichalfbee, I would delay uniting until much later and likely, as Peteinwilts, take them through the winter before sorting, but if the colony count must be reduced, that is a different situation and maybe needs a different plan. Thinking with blinkers on is not the way to get the best out of what you have.

Just checked five hives tonight - plenty of drones in each and still drone brood to emerge.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Mellifera397, sorry to have hijacked your thread. Our problems are similar, however.
Itma....I can find the queen, thanks for the really interesting advice though. I shall go read up on it.
Most of the advice is to combine in the Spring. That's probably what I should do. Now to convince husband.....those eight boxes look awfully crowded on the stand.

 

[itma]

...
Itma....I can find the queen …

My little box of horrors* has become sufficiently nasty that
1/ I don't fancy looking for Q in the ordinary way
2/ I'm not putting up with this any more
-so-
3/ I'm about to try out Ben Harden's method myself


* The only swarm I've taken in this season - because they were blacker than my bees. They have got nastier as they expanded, though from a June swarm they have brought in some honey … but I'm not Martha! She has to go. And I do happen to have a nuc available …

 

[Erichalfbee]

Itma, I will have to correct myself.

I found charged queen cells in July so I squashed the queen, reduced the QCs and let them get on with it. Queen should have emerged on August 2nd. Thought I might give her a chance as the colony was absolutely packing the honey in and I had taken a super off already. Next inspection on Saturday will be interesting.
Please let us know how it goes.