Unexpected brood in super

[clv101]

Hive surprised me today. Here's what's happened over the last few weeks, what do you think's going on.

Thu 25th April: 5 frames of brood.
Fri 3rd May: 6 frames of brood, several queen cups with eggs, a couple torn down before deciding to leave the rest and a super of foundation added (no QE).
Mon 6th May: 7 frames of brood, several queen cells with royal jelly. 3 frames (one BIAS, one BIAS with 5 charged queen cells, one stores) removed to a nuc and taken ~3 miles away.
Sat 11th May: 5 frames of brood, several charged queen cells - destroyed all of them. QE added under super which is now mostly drawn.
Mon 13th May: Cups with eggs in. 3 frames (one BIAS with Queen, 2 stores) removed to a nuc. Nuc left on apiary as per Nucleus Swarm Control Method.
Thu 16th May: New nuc is doing well, queen is laying. In the original hive there are two super frames full of brood, a few capped, mostly larva and I'm almost certain there were eggs! Light wasn't great but I'm at least 90% sure. Several charged, still open queen cells in brood box.

So what's going on? QE went on on the 11th, today (the 16th) there are 1 day old larva and I'm pretty sure also eggs. Remember, on the 13th I removed the queen from the brood box, below the QE.

It is possible that the queen laid eggs in the super up until the 11th and nipped down just before I added the QE. In which case today they would be at least 5 days old. But I'm virtually certain I saw eggs and 1 day old larva.

Is it possible that they managed to raise and mate a new queen without me noticing and without the old queen swarming or getting killed? The young, recently mated queen managed to slip through the (wire) QE and is today living in the super whilst the bees below raise new queen cells?

Any thoughts?

I'll check the super throughly this weekend if the weather is okay and find out just what's going on up there!

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

Haven't a clue what's going on, but six inspections in 22 days seems a lot to me!

But I'm not the one having to fret over them.

Dusty

 

[clv101]

Haven't a clue what's going on, but six inspections in 22 days seems a lot to me!

Indeed, not just inspections though... Mon 6th was to specifically perform the first split (which is doing well, culled the now sealed queen cells down to one and put two in poly mating nucs) and Mon 13th was for the 2nd split. Don't normally open up so often!

 

[oliver90owner]

90% sure.

Tell us when you are 100% sure. Then someone can guess.

 

[Tom Bick]

It is possible you have seen eggs laid by a few workers it happens and most hives have a few laying workers.

Its also possible the light played a trick with you especially on new comb.

 

[Finman]

It is possible you have seen eggs laid by a few workers it happens and most hives have a few laying workers.
.

but policing workers destroy all those eggs in 24 hours.

.

 

[Tom Bick]

but policing workers destroy all those eggs in 24 hours.

.

yes and I understand it to be the half sisters remove the eggs but the full sisters of the egg layer will protect the egg.

The test will be to see what the eggs develop into providing if they were eggs and are not removed

 

[clv101]

It is possible you have seen eggs laid by a few workers it happens and most hives have a few laying workers.

Its also possible the light played a trick with you especially on new comb.

I don't think it's laying workers. The brood pattern in the super frames is really nice. A few sealed (worker) cells at one end then a smooth gradation going from large larva ready to seal all the way down to 1 day old larva, filling every cell. Right next to the 1 day old larva were the patch of what I thought were eggs.

I'll be back on Sunday 19th to confirm.

 

[MrGrumpy]

So what's going on?

Either you missed a queen cell, or the workers moved the eggs through the excluder, or the queen got thin enough to get through it herself, or the workers have been laying eggs or you need to throw some money at an optician.

Workers can, and will, shuffle eggs through an excluder whenever they fancy, especially if it saves them having to draw comb. That's why they're called Queen Excluders rather than Egg Excluders and although they are reasonably good, some of the time, at restricting the range of a queen, they are best regarded, like everything in beekeeping, if not life, with a deep and abiding suspicion.

 

[Finman]

yes and I understand it to be the half sisters remove the eggs but the full sisters of the egg layer will protect the egg.

The test will be to see what the eggs develop into providing if they were eggs and are not removed

i have never seen that "half sister" explanation. Who has used his imagination because in tests all eggs have removed.

And what is half sister and full sister? whose? .....16 fathers

 

[Finman]

Workers can, and will, shuffle eggs through an excluder whenever they fancy, especially if it saves them having to draw comb. That's why they're called Queen Excluders rather than Egg Excluders and although they are reasonably good, some of the time, at restricting the range of a queen, they are best regarded, like everything in beekeeping, if not life, with a deep and abiding suspicion.

and where you got that explanation?

 

[Tom Bick]

It came from a talk at a Federation of Middlesex Beekeepers gathering from some research that was going to be published but I don’t know if it ever was or not.

The research was about the relationships within the hive between the workers, obviously the same mother (apart from drifting) and different fathers hence full sisters same mother and father and half sisters same mother different father.

Amongst other things they found that in hives where the queen had mated with only a couple of drones the hive had more laying workers than hives when the queen mated with many drones.

Dont ask me how but they could observe eggs laid by laying workers and the eggs were left alone by the egg layers full sister but given the chance removed by a half sister.

To me this half sister and full sister rings a cord and as the queen mates with several drones is right.

 

[CB008]

I found lots of brood in my super yesterday. Having considered all possibilities including my stupidity, I can only deduce that she got through and has since returned as there are now eggs below. They have not swarmed and I saw the Queen a week before and there has been no sign of super endure cells or anything

 

[Tom Bick]

Also a damaged queen excluder can cause problems. A bent wire or a bit of brace comb distorting a plastic one can I bet give the right space for HRH.

 

[clv101]

Quick update, nothing very exciting:

Sun 19th May: No eggs or young larva in super (or anywhere else). Several sealed queen cells, both in the brood box and in the super. Removed QE.

I left the queen cells, but now I'm thinking that I should have destroyed all but one of them to prevent cast swarms. It seems risky to leave only one, what it if turns out to be duff! They won't be emerging for a week or so. What to do, leave them all, tear all but one down, all but two down?