Two Queens

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must_dash

New Bee
Joined
May 6, 2010
Messages
51
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Location
Varese, Italy
Hive Type
Dadant
Number of Hives
4
Just done the first full inspection and really pleased as lots of stores, pollen and brood. Even brace comb with honey (between frames and crown board in the 3/4" apiquard size eke I used for fondant) that wasn't there 2 weeks ago.

However one hive that over wintered on a brood and a super has two queens....

We went through the super and found queen one about 3/4 of the way through. Carefully put the super aside and went through the brood box and found a queen. Initially we thought it was the same queen (both unmarked) and she had done a runner while we finished the super.
We then went back through the super and found queen 1.

What to do?
Let them sort it out?
Set up a nuc and gain a colony?
Thanks
 
I suppose you could put one above a queen excluder & one below & see if they are both laying . Don't know if your hive is strong enough yet or if you have drawn brood comb you can give them . It may be a mother & daughter supercedure. Once you see the brood pattern you can decide if you want to split them or let them sort it out among themselves. One queen might be failing
 
I have been told that you can have a hive with two queens in, as long as there is a QX between them but im sure other member might tell me off for saying that lol but it would give you time to let both queens lay brood.

Then the queen in the super could be put under a BB without an QX for a number of week. Then put the QX between the the botton super and the BB on top, making sure the queen is in the BB when you finished.
 
Supercedure can run for quite a long time, 18 months has been known.

I would pick one and pop her in a nuc on a good frame of brood and some extra bees with a stores comb.

PH
 
I would be inclined to just leave alone.

But if you wanted to be clever, you could put a queen excluder in so that one queen is in the super and one in the brood box. Then I would see if they are both egg laying and are laying fertile eggs. You then got your chance to do a split, assuming you wanted to.
 
I was reading about this the other day, apparently is isn't that unusual, if they were mine I would let them get on with it, -but what do I know as a novice?
Louise
 
I had two queens in a hive late last summer and did what Poly Hive suggested here.

At that time, there were several correspondants on the thread who suggested that this action was tantamount to ignoring the bees' better judgement - they were superceding for a reason, even if it was not plain to me. Fair enough...time will tell.

So far this year I have not inspected (the nuc came back to the apiary only 2 weeks ago after an enforced overwintering north of the river), but the traffic looks hopeful...as long as that "old" 2010 queen has not kicked off 2011 with exclusively male offspring !

Will let you know what I find on the first inspection.
 
we are all novices conpare to the bees, who have been around for millions of years,

i would leave alone or split into a nuc, as one maybe failing
 
Thanks for all the help.
As the sun was shining and warm enough I went back to the apiary today. Rather than let the queens fight it out I put a queen excluder between them and will check back in a while to see if both are laying. If so when I have enough bees I will split the hive and hopefully gain a colony.
:cheers2:
 
Thanks for all the help.
As the sun was shining and warm enough I went back to the apiary today. Rather than let the queens fight it out I put a queen excluder between them and will check back in a while to see if both are laying. If so when I have enough bees I will split the hive and hopefully gain a colony.
:cheers2:

The queens do not fight it out in the case of supersedure. The workers knife the unwanted queen in the back when she ain't looking. Well, maybe not, but the workers do the killing.

Yup. Best to first establish if both of the queens are laying 'good' brood. But then it might get complicated for you. What if new queen has only recently emerged and has yet to mate? But hey, they might both be laying 'properly'.
 
As louiseww says, not unusual. We rarely notice because we don't go hunting queens at every opportunity, well I certainly don't - and even less likely if supercedure is taking place and there is potentially a virgin queen in the hive. But with 5000 forum members, there will be quite a lot hunting the lady at every opportunity, si it is not surprising the occurence is being noted more often.

Bees are not as stupid as some might think (per TB above) - they are unlikely to get rid of a laying queen (and potentially becoming hopelessly queenless) until the virgin is successfully mated and laying, so I would think it is likely more the 'norm' than some would like to believe.

I have never yet found two queens in a colony like this, but as I say, I rarely look for a queen - and certainly not in March - unless there is very good reason to! If supercedure is taking place, I just simply do not inspect for several weeks.

I do know I have a drone layer (there was a supercedure cell in the colony near the end of September). I will be checking, just in case there are still two queens present, before I unite that colony, shortly.

In this particular case (unmarked queens), the problem might be that removal of the young queen may set the supercedure process in motion again.

RAB
 
.
Put an excluder and let them grow joined.

You may split the hive when it is big, about 4 boxes.
 
However one hive that over wintered on a brood and a super has two queens....
What to do?
Let them sort it out?
Set up a nuc and gain a colony?
Thanks

It is, as some respondents have already indicated, remarkably common, and in one case we had a few years back we had three queens.

On first examination in the spring we mark all the queens. First examination found a young laying queen, who was promptly marked with the year befores colour......

At next examination upon going through the colony a three year old queens was found, and the person whose writing it was on the hive from the time before was teased about being colourblind or not having their mind on the job last visit......

Then a hatched single queen cell was noticed.............and on the other side of the comb the queen marked last time..........and then the virgin running too.

Hive next door was queenright, so no running queen moved over....

So we had a 3yo Q, her 1yo daughter, who was obviously not satisfactory as they were superceding her right away, and a new virgin, the grandaughter (maybe, who knows, maybe the egg was laid by 'granny') all running at the same time.

Once the new queen mated and laid the two older ones vanished and from then on all was normal.

So...........

My normal conclusion on the multiple queens situation is to leave well alone. Bees supercede for a reason, and that is normally because the incumbent is failing to meet the needs of the colony. She cannot perform as the pressures of the situation demand, so they set about getting a better one. Leave them alone and all will be well. If you DO set up a nuc it is likely you have done one of them with a substandard queen, so either the nuc or the by now weakened colony will struggle.

Off on a tangent.....

Supercedure can actually be provoked by putting an older queen under high pressure to lay. Doing a split whereby all the flying bees come back to a new broodnest containing the old queen and only a little young brood can pressurise her to lay at which point her weakness manifests itself and the bees start supercedure..........if they do not then the old lady is still a good one and you can leave her for a while yet. This scenario of supercedure is very common in our unit.

An old time guy round here used to trigger suercedure by damaging the old queen. Seemed to work fine for him although it would normally be considered cruel (he crippled a leg or two). Never tried it as it just seems alien to my way of thinking.

In general I am not a lover of stock that habitually supercedes rather than comes to swarm point. The latter can easily be exploited to advantage, and, if not excessive or starting at too low a strength level, is a sign of vigour, whereas superceding stock goes through too many cycles of of being low vigour small producers. A one BS brood box bee that never comes under space pressure, and then supercedes, is of little use to me.
 
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I think most people who look for queens see the 'first' one after much looking and then stop looking and check brood and stores etc.

I am going to mark both of them, just ordered the pens from Amazon. What is the best way or device to use to hold the queen?
 
I am going to mark both of them, just ordered the pens from Amazon. What is the best way or device to use to hold the queen?

Got to be personal preference. Ideally by hand I think, but thats a bit intimidating for us beginners. I had a go with a crown of thorns last year and found that quite easy. Got one of those plunger things as well which is not yet tried.
 
One of the members of MBBKA had this situation for quite a long time last year and it was mentioned in one of their newsletters (which are downloadable from their website). Haven't heard this year's episode. The two seemed to coexist quite happily as far as I can recall.
Tricia
 
I think most people who look for queens see the 'first' one after much looking and then stop looking and check brood and stores etc.

I am going to mark both of them, just ordered the pens from Amazon. What is the best way or device to use to hold the queen?

i used to use my fingers to hold her, but after damaging her and losing her i now used a plunger from Tho%nes. ive not had a problems since and ive marked/clipped about 50-60 queens with it.:sifone:
 
I think most people who look for queens

I think most people who look for queens, when it is not necessary, need to learn to be a beekeeper!

I never "hunt the queen'' unless I need to find her. Simple as that. It invariably takes longer to do an inspection and the result is usually a foregone conclusion - she is there somewhere.

When I started it took ages for me to spot the queen. I often see them now but, as then, it is a case of spotting her during the course of the inspection, not hunting her down - unless I need to find her for a reason.

The experience will come in time (and when you are better able to find her without rummaging through the colony for minutes on end). Eggs means she was there within the last three days; recently hatched brood, within about 4 days, open brood within about the last week; capped brood, within the last three weeks.

I am now wondering how many new beeks will be searching for a second queen, just to prove to themselves it can happen.

RAB
 
I agree with RAB. I like to mark my queens but do not actively search for them. If newbees want to mark their queens now is the time to do it. From now on the colonies will be expanding and making it harder and harder to find her.
 
I was told early on NOT to look for the queen.

To echoe RAB, if you see her during the course of an inspection its a bonus. If you see her and she isn't marked and you have your marking kit to hand, mark her. I know of a number of retired bee keepers who never looked for their queens, in fact one of them only saw a queen for the first time a few years ago when his son in law bought in a number of queens as a means of improving his stock.
 

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