Two queens

[thorn]

Last autumn I found my lame three year old queen happily limping about on the frames, and a supercedure cell that looked as if it had been stung through and the occupant done away with.
My first couple of inspections this year were just to check for eggs and brood, and to ensure that the colony was healthy, but at last, this weekend, the weather was good enough for me to do a full inspection.
On about the third frame in I found a new queen, on a frame full of eggs and brood. As I worked toward the other side, the brood tailed off, and then, on the penultimate frame, there was the old queen, with no eggs or brood on that frame nor the frames either side. Clearly the supercedure had taken place, and despite the lateness of the season the new queen mated successfully. But then she and her mother cohabited throughout the winter. I’ll be interested to see how long the old, and not too sprightly queen is tolerated by her successor. And yes, I realise I should squish her to avoid any possibly injury to the successor, but I’m rather fond of her. Perhaps I’ll put her in an apidea with a cupful of bees, and let her live out her days there.

 

[enrico]

I wouldn't squish her, they may live together for a while. I had exactly the same situation last year. Eventually they got rid of her.
E

 

[Curley]

/Perhaps I’ll put her in an apidea with a cupful of bees, and let her live out her days there.

Certainly worth putting her in a nuc if you want to preserve the genetics.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

Two or three years ago I found mother and daughter in spring on the same frame; with a frame of drone brood as well as a frame of worker brood - did one queen lay on her won frame? I will never know. I left them be. Unfortunately they killed off Mum a week or two later leaving an unmated DLQ in the hive

Your old queen might last for a while in a mini-nuc of some kind and lay some worker eggs. And would be an insurance against the problem I experienced.

 

[Into the lions den]

Last autumn I found my lame three year old queen happily limping about on the frames, and a supercedure cell that looked as if it had been stung through and the occupant done away with.
My first couple of inspections this year were just to check for eggs and brood, and to ensure that the colony was healthy, but at last, this weekend, the weather was good enough for me to do a full inspection.
On about the third frame in I found a new queen, on a frame full of eggs and brood. As I worked toward the other side, the brood tailed off, and then, on the penultimate frame, there was the old queen, with no eggs or brood on that frame nor the frames either side. Clearly the supercedure had taken place, and despite the lateness of the season the new queen mated successfully. But then she and her mother cohabited throughout the winter. I’ll be interested to see how long the old, and not too sprightly queen is tolerated by her successor. And yes, I realise I should squish her to avoid any possibly injury to the successor, but I’m rather fond of her. Perhaps I’ll put her in an apidea with a cupful of bees, and let her live out her days there.

Its not at all an unusual situation...have even once seen 3 generations..all there at the same time.

I would suggest that the presence of eggs or otherwise on the bars you saw the respective queens on is just a coincidence, as from our experience about 5% of requeening situations with the daughters of the old queen result in 2 queens running at the same time....but most never notice it as once you have seen the queen you have seen the queen and do not go looking for another one.

Its quite often a precursor to the new queen being superceded. She has not been able to oust mother so possibly not an especially vibrant queen. Just why it happens is just my surmising, I know of no definitive research on such things and put it down to 'just one of those things bees do that are interesting but over which we have little control'.

Its most common in supercedures, but even if you unite two colonies...one old Q and her daughter raised in a split....come spring we find about 80% of the young queens in charge, about 15% of the old queen in charge, and about 5% with both. (We do not kill either queen when reuniting unless there is a good reason to be sure one does not continue, allowing nature to take its course.)

 

[Erichalfbee]

but even if you unite two colonies...one old Q and her daughter raised in a split....We do not kill either queen when reuniting unless there is a good reason to be sure one does not continue, allowing nature to take its course.)

Crikey!
That flies completely in the face if everything Ive ever been taught.

 

[Into the lions den]

Crikey!
That flies completely in the face if everything Ive ever been taught.

Much of what is taught is some heavy hitter in the past's opinion. Beekeeping, especially at the level of those who seek to evangelise to a point of view is...and I say this often....'opinion rich, fact deficient'.

It works just fine. As does the other way. One is a lot less work.

You would just LOVE our September nuc making process, and folk rile against our Sept/Oct comb replacement (although some on here have tried it and can vouch for it).

Some of the threads on here concerning advice people have been given...for whatever reason, just make me shake my head. There is no point even getting involved. Some of those giving advice, sometimes from a fairly lofty position, should be dragged out the back and shot.

That lies firmly in the category of opinion btw....before anyone takes my advice.....<G>

Have read bee publications which spout stuff that is absolutely the reverse of what we find to work, indeed can be proven NOT to work, yet its out there as FACTS. Must be because 'X' wrote it and they are an 'expert'.

There are people on this forum who may have issues with razzling people up and perhaps a confrontational delivery style, but you should look past the issues of how nice or otherwise they might be and focus on the message. These people are most often correct.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Much of what is taught is some heavy hitter in the past's opinion. Beekeeping, especially at the level of those who seek to evangelise to a point of view is...and I say this often....'opinion rich, fact deficient'.

It works just fine. As does the other way. One is a lot less work.

You would just LOVE our September nuc making process, and folk rile against our Sept/Oct comb replacement (although some on here have tried it and can vouch for it).

Some of the threads on here concerning advice people have been given...for whatever reason, just make me shake my head. There is no point even getting involved. Some of those giving advice, sometimes from a fairly lofty position, should be dragged out the back and shot.

That lies firmly in the category of opinion btw....before anyone takes my advice.....<G>

Have read bee publications which spout stuff that is absolutely the reverse of what we find to work, indeed can be proven NOT to work, yet its out there as FACTS. Must be because 'X' wrote it and they are an 'expert'.

There are people on this forum who may have issues with razzling people up and perhaps a confrontational delivery style, but you should look past the issues of how nice or otherwise they might be and focus on the message. These people are most often correct.

Well I've tried your Autumn comb replacement, if you mean putting a frame of foundation in the middle of the brood nest and yes....it does work a treat.

As for promulgating stuff repeatedly I couldn't agree more. Every time I've questioned this shook swarm mania they seem to have on the BBKA FB pages I get shot down for having dirty bees......Oh well.

There are a couple of people on this forum who have helped me no end and who have got me out of a few nasty spots. Sadly they post little these days and answer the description in your last paragraph...but I suppose fora change and move on and new razzlers take on the mantle.

Thanks for the info......most interesting

 

[JWF]

Thanks for the info......most interesting

Yes I'll second that

 

[Newbeeneil]

This is very interesting!
Are we talking about reuniting over newspaper?

 

[thorn]

You would just LOVE our September nuc making process, and folk rile against our Sept/Oct comb replacement (although some on here have tried it and can vouch for it).

Can you send me the link please.

 

[Into the lions den]

This is very interesting!
Are we talking about reuniting over newspaper?

Not exactly no.....we never use newspaper...or at least not done so for at least 30 years.

Air freshener is a quicker and simpler way to get it done, especially in windy conditions. Spray over the top bars of what is going to be the bottom box, and the bottom bars of the one going on top, Put them together. Finished.

No wrestling with sheets of paper or worrying about overheating of top lot if weather is warm.

Works a treat, no fighting.

 

[Into the lions den]

Can you send me the link please.

Don't have any links I can send you...not yet anyway but a website is under preparation but will have to wait till autumn now to go live.

However......which is it you are asking about?

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

You would just LOVE our September nuc making process, and folk rile against our Sept/Oct comb replacement (although some on here have tried it and can vouch for it).

Reading between the lines, I guess that there is no attempt to find the Q of the parent colonies.

I took on your autumn comb lessons very early on. Thank you.

 

[Into the lions den]

Reading between the lines, I guess that there is no attempt to find the Q of the parent colonies.
.

Only if we need to. All queens that are not to our liking for whatever reason are marked with TRQ on the front of the box. Those are dispatched before the uniting, and the new queen is then never a daughter of the old one. Otherwise you are correct, the bees sort out the confusion for you.

 

[enrico]

Can you pm me your autumn comb technique please. Thanks
E

 

[thorn]

Don't have any links I can send you...not yet anyway but a website is under preparation but will have to wait till autumn now to go live.

However......which is it you are asking about?

The comb replacement.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

As for promulgating stuff repeatedly I couldn't agree more. Every time I've questioned this shook swarm mania they seem to have on the BBKA FB pages I get shot down for having dirty bees......Oh well.

I looked at the FB page a bit but it is a strange place and not really a forum. And I hate FB anyway so I look no more.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Can you pm me your autumn comb technique please. Thanks
E

I assume it's dreecht in Scotland, but even so. This is the post I have always used as reference. https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=313288&postcount=14

 

[madasafish]

Not exactly no.....we never use newspaper...or at least not done so for at least 30 years.

Air freshener is a quicker and simpler way to get it done, especially in windy conditions. Spray over the top bars of what is going to be the bottom box, and the bottom bars of the one going on top, Put them together. Finished.

No wrestling with sheets of paper or worrying about overheating of top lot if weather is warm.

Works a treat, no fighting.

Learned that from you 4 years ago. Works a treat and so much easier..Not had any problems with it. Thanks.