Top Bar Hive

[jeff4051]

Intend making my own top bars with side and bottom rails, I like the idea of attaching the nuc frame under the top bar will do that, ta. Where is the best place to put the fondant, thinking out loud the insert to cap off the empty space in hive, if that makes sense.

 

[Little John]

If you are intending using conventional frames then you really need to put a crown board above them as otherwise you will probably find the bees build in the roof space as well.

Instead of a Crown Board, a much kinder(1) method is to simply place a polythene sheet over the frames: doing this will a) contain the bees, b) allow them to propolise away to their heart's content, and c) enable only a few bars to be exposed at a time when making an inspection. A flat (insulated) cover can then be placed directly on top of the polythene.

It is also possible (although not frequently done), to mix 'n' match frames and top bars in the same hive. Can be a useful means of moving a colony from frame to Top Bar and vice versa.
The simplest way to effect this is to make 'stepped' Top Bars (to produce a 10mm thick 'lug', as per the National frame) - otherwise the height difference creates 'escapee' problems (ask me how I know this ...) - then use a polythene sheet as above.


(1) In the 'propolis wars', bees keep trying to seal their cavities, especially the upper parts, and human beings keep trying to thwart them from doing this - by use of the 'beespace trick', and by constantly removing that propolis which offends them.
Isn't it about time we woke up to the idea that bees propolise and build attachment comb for compelling reasons, and not just to be bloody-minded ?

LJ

 

[jeff4051]

No I intend using the top bar method so bees cant get into roof space, but will make frames to go onto bars.

 

[pargyle]

Whilst I have hinged lids on 3 out of 4 of my larger TBHs , I like the hinge on that one and shall copy it on my last.

I note the lack of insulation(?)....so not very green?

Yes, the lack of insulation on many of the TBH plans available on line worries me too ... not just from the point of view of reducing heat loss in winter but also from the point of view of giving the bees an environment where they can maintain their chosen temperature and humidity regardless of the weather outside the hive. There are people with much more knowledge than me (where are you derek ?) but from everything I've gleaned the more insulation the better - particularly above the brood.

 

[pargyle]

Instead of a Crown Board, a much kinder(1) method is to simply place a polythene sheet over the frames: doing this will a) contain the bees, b) allow them to propolise away to their heart's content, and c) enable only a few bars to be exposed at a time when making an inspection. A flat (insulated) cover can then be placed directly on top of the polythene.

J

This is a good idea .... like it.

 

[oliver90owner]

You might consider some additions:

Mesh floor with a tray underneath it - useful for measuring Varroa drop. You would need to make it detachable so that you could get to it without disturbing the bees. My tray slides out - it's in a compartment under the mesh floor.

Adjustable ventilation - I have a series of holes drilled in the hive sides above the mesh floor that can be sealed with corks to adjust the level of ventilation.


This sort of thing is to be avoided. An OMF is there for ventilation and mostly mine are all open year round. The need for ventilation holes appears to indicate a closed OMF; this is a sure way to encourage pests and disease in the detritus, which will accumulate down there where the bees are unable to access it.

I only partially close an OMF if the weather is very severe.

 

[pargyle]

You might consider some additions:

Mesh floor with a tray underneath it - useful for measuring Varroa drop. You would need to make it detachable so that you could get to it without disturbing the bees. My tray slides out - it's in a compartment under the mesh floor.

Adjustable ventilation - I have a series of holes drilled in the hive sides above the mesh floor that can be sealed with corks to adjust the level of ventilation.


This sort of thing is to be avoided. An OMF is there for ventilation and mostly mine are all open year round. The need for ventilation holes appears to indicate a closed OMF; this is a sure way to encourage pests and disease in the detritus, which will accumulate down there where the bees are unable to access it.

I can see what you are saying though .... I was just a bit worried that with the size of the hive and an open mesh floor across the whole of the bottom it might have been a bit too much ventilation ... however, with two follower boards enclosing the colony I suppose it would only be the same size as a conventional 14 x 12 most of the time when ventilation may mean 'cold'.

I only partially close an OMF if the weather is very severe.

Well, Yes and No ... the OMF is there principally as a Varroa trap ... beneath it is a pull out drawer about 3" deep (Its a pretty loose fit so there is some air circulation) which will catch any detritus. I had considered filling this with woodshavings (a la Phil Chandler 'deep litter floor') but at present it just contains a sticky board. The mesh floor and the tray are detachable from the bottom of the hive so I can get to the mesh floor itself for cleaning if necessary. My hives are built on 14 x 12 frame dimensions, are vertical sided and (at 4' long) it would be an awful lot of OMF to leave open all year round ... alhough the slot in tray gives me this option. We shall see how it works.

The ventilation holes are just above OMF level and are closed with corks (or not as the case may be) and have mesh on the inside so that vermin, wasps etc. can't use them to gain access to the hive.

I can see what you are saying though ... I was just a bit worried that a 4' x 14" OMF would be just a bit too much ventilation - having said that, as the colony is enclosed by two follower boards the actual colony floor area would be less than this for much of the year.

 

[oliver90owner]

the OMF is there principally as a Varroa trap

Err, no it isn't.

 

[pargyle]

the OMF is there principally as a Varroa trap

Err, no it isn't.

OK ... I bow to your greater knowledge and experience ... but why are they manufactured in a mesh size that just allows Varroa to drop through and why are they described as Varroa floors in the Th....ns catalogue ?

And actually I was referring to my OMF floor - which, as at present it is not there principally for ventilation, is a Varroa trap.

 

[Little John]

the OMF is there principally as a Varroa trap

Err, no it isn't.

That's the same argument as saying that: "a hard drive is there principally as working memory, not for long-term storage of either programs or data".

Yes, that was it's original purpose, back in the days of tape streamers and so forth - but is there anyone who does not use a hard drive these days for long-term storage ?

The purpose of inventions and developments often change with time.

And FWIW, my 'happiest' hive right now is one with a solid floor - so I'm seriously considering bucking the fashion and retrofitting solid floors to all. I'll be considering this over the next year or two.

LJ

 

[pargyle]

That's the same argument as saying that: "a hard drive is there principally as working memory, not for long-term storage of either programs or data".

Yes, that was it's original purpose, back in the days of tape streamers and so forth - but is there anyone who does not use a hard drive these days for long-term storage ?

The purpose of inventions and developments often change with time.

And FWIW, my 'happiest' hive right now is one with a solid floor - so I'm seriously considering bucking the fashion and retrofitting solid floors to all. I'll be considering this over the next year or two.

LJ

Yep ... a lot of what I am reading these days is that full OMF floors are not great with the present very wet UK climate ... there is some indication that it is damp that is more detrimental to colonies than cold. One of the reasons I decided on a tray under my OMF floor was to protect the colony from the damp and draughts - whilst still giving me the option to provide ventilation if it was required. Bear in mind that the bottom of my TBH is a good bit higher than the normal height for National hive stands so there is more potential for draughts.

Whilst heat rises and therefore the critical insulation is at the top and sides of the hive, damp in the atmosphere will permeate everywhere. I'm just trying to give the bees an insulated environment which they can control - I'm hoping for the best of both worlds with my hive set up.

 

[BeeJayBee]

... but why are they manufactured in a mesh size that just allows Varroa to drop through and why are they described as Varroa floors in the Th....ns catalogue ?

They do it to confuse beekeepers!

If you're going to leave the board, or a board, permanently beneath the mesh you risk providing a lovely warm home for wax moth. Debris will collect there, but the bees won't be able to get at it to clear it out, or eat wax moth eggs and larvae.

 

[madasafish]

I have bottom boards in permanently in my TBHs below the OMFs.. but there is a gap to allow the bees to enter the gap and so whatever bees do...

No problems in 3 years so far.

 

[Tom Bick]

I would say I keep my inspection trays in 50% of the time and on every visit I inspect them and then a scrape in the long grass and replaced. This gives me a good idea what the colony is upto within the hive and can reduce the need to inspect to early in the year.

I will be gettin close to removing them for the summer apart from varroa monitoring.

 

[beebreeder]

I have bottom boards in permanently in my TBHs below the OMFs.. but there is a gap to allow the bees to enter the gap and so whatever bees do...

No problems in 3 years so far.

Sort of defeats the object of mites dropping to the floor, if bees can get in to clean, the mites just hop back on for a free lift back in the colony surely

 

[Little John]

For one my Nationals, I've made what is essentially a 3-sided eke 3 inches high. This sits between the OMF and a solid floor. There is a piece of correx living permanently on top of the solid floor, which can be removed for cleaning.

The fourth side of the 'eke' is removable, both to access the correx sheet, and to allow ventilation through the OMF.

I'm toying with the idea of installing some kind of variable vent to the removeable fourth side, but right now it's just cracked open a little - can't see me opening it fully unless there's a significant change in the weather !

Still an experimental bit of kit in it's first year of testing - but so far it's looking good.

LJ

 

[pargyle]

For one my Nationals, I've made what is essentially a 3-sided eke 3 inches high. This sits between the OMF and a solid floor. There is a piece of correx living permanently on top of the solid floor, which can be removed for cleaning.

The fourth side of the 'eke' is removable, both to access the correx sheet, and to allow ventilation through the OMF.

I'm toying with the idea of installing some kind of variable vent to the removeable fourth side, but right now it's just cracked open a little - can't see me opening it fully unless there's a significant change in the weather !

Still an experimental bit of kit in it's first year of testing - but so far it's looking good.

LJ

Sounds very much like the thinking that brought me to the very similar arrangement I have, alberit in a TBH rather than a National. If you drill some 1" holes in the 4th side of your 'eke' you can put corks in them - removing as many corks as you feel needed for ventilation at the time.

 

[madasafish]

Sort of defeats the object of mites dropping to the floor, if bees can get in to clean, the mites just hop back on for a free lift back in the colony surely

You misunderstand. The floor is usually covered in a mixture of bits of wax , and pollen etc. Once a mite falls into that,it's stuck.. My boards are rarely cleaned except when I want to count varroa..

And the only way up for varroa is to walk along the length of the board to the sides and up that way. The hive walls and bottom are treated every two years with a wax /linseed/veg oil mixture which is rather sticky and tends to trap small creeping insects - eg ants , mites etc.

 

[BeeJayBee]

You misunderstand. The floor is usually covered in a mixture of bits of wax , and pollen etc. Once a mite falls into that,it's stuck.. My boards are rarely cleaned except when I want to count varroa..

And the only way up for varroa is to walk along the length of the board to the sides and up that way. The hive walls and bottom are treated every two years with a wax /linseed/veg oil mixture which is rather sticky and tends to trap small creeping insects - eg ants , mites etc.

But ... I don't use solid floors, but those I have seen are usually free of debris once winter is over because the bees clear it out. Bees are very clean creatures, leaving a load of stuff that they can't easily get to must, surely, be stressful for them? - Not a criticism, just a question about one of the many different ways of managing a colony.

 

[madasafish]

But ... I don't use solid floors, but those I have seen are usually free of debris once winter is over because the bees clear it out. Bees are very clean creatures, leaving a load of stuff that they can't easily get to must, surely, be stressful for them? - Not a criticism, just a question about one of the many different ways of managing a colony.

My bees are very laid back. The picture below shows the white board below one of my TBHs..(pallets) just slides out. As it's not an integral part of the hive, the bees appear to never clean it...