To swarm or not to swarm

[alancooper]

Double national brood box 8 and 3 frames brood 11th June brood in all stages. 18th June 6 frames brood, no eggs larvae and 3 charged Q cells. Queen presumed gone with emergency Q cells to produce a new Q. Today, One large Qcell sealed with two charged and looking as if they need another few days before being sealed. No sign of the clipped, marked Q, BUT six cells close to the charged cells had eggs. Do I regret not putting in a test frame? Do I start swarm control p.d.q.? - or hope for new Q production from the emergency cell?

 

[alancooper]

Ooops - there are two supers with little honey. PLenny of laying space in the brood boxes.

 

[enrico]

Remove all but one queen cell, your clipped queen is on the grass somewhere. If you leave more than one they will swarm anyway. They still might do. I would make a nuc up with one of the queen cells as a backup if it was me but ....

 

[jarmo henttu]

Double national brood box 8 and 3 frames brood 11th June brood in all stages. 18th June 6 frames brood, no eggs larvae and 3 charged Q cells. Queen presumed gone with emergency Q cells to produce a new Q. Today, One large Qcell sealed with two charged and looking as if they need another few days before being sealed. No sign of the clipped, marked Q, BUT six cells close to the charged cells had eggs. Do I regret not putting in a test frame? Do I start swarm control p.d.q.? - or hope for new Q production from the emergency cell?

You have queen cells
You do not see the eggs of clipped queen.

You do not need test frames.
The hive has tried to swarm and the queen is went into lawn.

No mystery to be seen.

 

[Sutty]

As above.
But I'd look around nearby on the ground for a small cluster of bees with the clipped queen!

 

[jarmo henttu]

As above.
But I'd look around nearby on the ground for a small cluster of bees with the clipped queen!

If you have a clipped queen, swarm does not arrive to the queen, which is not able to fly. The quee must be able to fly to the swarm. What the bees do with a queen, which cannot move the the new nest? And perhaps cannot make mating flights.

 

[alancooper]

I wrote “BUT six cells close to the charged cells had eggs”. They were worker cells. The eggs were not in Q cups. This information was crucial - the main reason I posted. If the eggs had been in Q cups I would not have posted. Interpretation would have been (as you have all pointed out) that the clipped Q had swarmed.
Does the clarity that the eggs were in worker cells change your view that swarming had taken place?
I am still dithering today on how to progress, but (famous last words) I do not think the colony has swarmed.

 

[fian]

Day 18 without eggs means that your trimmed queen has stopped laying on day 15.
Hypothesis A:
The queen has swarmed and as her companions point out she would be on the ground (15 days have passed so the chances of survival are very slim). Regarding the hive, it is without a queen and a new one would be about to emerge.
Hypothesis B:
In the first inspection, charged cells were passed. Given the impossibility of the main queen leaving, the swarm has fled with the first virgin queen to emerge. The workers may have killed the trimmed queen. The hive without a queen and without brood may begin to find itself at the limit (emergence of a laying worker).
Review and pay attention to two facts:
1. Do the workers keep a small hole where the new queen can lay?
2. How many drone cells are there?

 

[alancooper]

Thanks for your considered comments. I inspected again this afternoon. Quite a few more eggs were present compared with yesterday. This prompted a failed search for a Q. A second search found her, clipped and with a small faded patch of red paint. She was slow moving. The sealed Q cell recorded yesterday was still present. Notes I made on 18th June read that the charged Q cells were probably 5 or 6 days old. This afternoon they looked as if they had not developed much further.
No more dithering. I have concluded that the colony probably did not swarm and that supercedure is in progress.
Alan.

 

[fian]

Thanks for your considered comments. I inspected again this afternoon. Quite a few more eggs were present compared with yesterday. This prompted a failed search for a Q. A second search found her, clipped and with a small faded patch of red paint. She was slow moving. The sealed Q cell recorded yesterday was still present. Notes I made on 18th June read that the charged Q cells were probably 5 or 6 days old. This afternoon they looked as if they had not developed much further.
No more dithering. I have concluded that the colony probably did not swarm and that supercedure is in progress.
Alan.

B is still possible, for safety I would remove the cut queen to a nucleus. Once the replacement is complete, decide whether to eliminate the old queen and gather it or keep it in reserve (you never know when it may be needed).

 

[alancooper]

B is still possible, for safety I would remove the cut queen to a nucleus. Once the replacement is complete, decide whether to eliminate the old queen and gather it or keep it in reserve (you never know when it may be needed).

Yes, I agree with you. B is still possible. Thanks for your advice.