Thorne's news & matchsticks

[Hivemaker.]

If only they had insulation boards 50 years ago

Brother Adam used thick slabs of cork insulation on the quad mating boxes during the winter.

 

[user 6228]

Brother Adam said that his uninsulated colonies were the first to build up in the spring.

B.A. didnt leave enough information to exactly understand his method. However, if he left top ventilation and then applied insulation he could well have got the results he did. In his book the entry about his use of top ventilation is just across the page from his description of the experiment. A similar experiment with poly hives and holes in the roof was performed by Dodologlu with similar results.


Dodologlu, A., DÜLGER, C., & Genc, F. (2004). Colony condition and bee behaviour in honey bees ( Apis mellifera ) housed in wooden or polystyrene hives and fed “ bee cake ” or syrup. Journal Of Apicultural Research, 43(1), 3–8.

Adam, B. (1975). Beekeeping At Buckfast Abbey Autumn & Winter. In Beekeeping At Buckfast Abbey (4th Editio, pp. 55–58). Northern Bee Books.

 

[user 6228]

If only they had insulation boards 50 years ago

they did .. heavy big cumbersome expensive and often difficult to obtain.

 

[REDWOOD]

they did .. heavy big cumbersome expensive and often difficult to obtain.

None found in skips then

 

[Fusion_power]

When someone makes statements that contravene common sense and even a simple understanding of heat transfer I cant remain silent even if sometimes the severity of the calumny makes me almost speechless!

Brother Adam also said to ask the bees and let them tell you. While I agree that better insulated hives in theory should work better both summer and winter, I'd say the bees have to decide if it is in fact better. Your position is based entirely on human considerations. Calculation of heat transfer is not the same thing as taking a very close look at how the bees behave in a poly hive vs a wood hive. With that in mind....

Bees need water summer and winter. In summer, they can fly out to get as much as they want so long as there is a source nearby. When it is too cold to fly, they still need water. Honey is @17 percent water which is not nearly enough. Metabolizing sugars in honey produces water with the simple reaction of 1 - C6H12O6 + 6 - O2 producing 6 C02 + 6 H20. So to get water in winter, bees need to metabolize honey. Bees can metabolize too much honey with the result that excess moisture accumulates on the hive interior and can drip back down on the bees. This plays out in my hives if I don't have upper entrances. Bees also can metabolize too little honey with the result that they are so thirsty they fly out on a day that is too cold and get chilled and die.

Mobus showed - ABJ July and August 1998 - that bees in a highly insulated hive do not produce enough water and as a result they fly out on a cold day and die. He also showed that the same effect occurs when a cluster is too large by combining two large colonies in a wooden hive. His methods were fairly rigorous including weighing individual bees as they flew out of the hive to see how much water they contained. From personal experience, I can state that a normal size colony in a wooden hive produces a huge surplus of water, ergo the upper entrances in my hives.

Calumny is a word indicating personal attack, the act of deliberately spreading lies or slander. Please take what I post as an invitation to discussion, not an attack on your position. I am asking that you take a few moments to step outside your normal track and think about bee logic instead of human logic. Perhaps putting a source of water in the hive would be useful with a poly hive during winter?

With this in mind, and intended solely to invite discussion, would you care to comment on the need to ask the bees what they think about poly hives?

 

[madasafish]

If only they had insulation boards 50 years ago

They had insulated hives decades before then.. WBCs with the gap stuffed with straw..
Strangely enough the UK based non insulators tend not to mention them. I wonder why?

One winter here of non insulated langs and a poly lang made the choice very simple. The poly outperformed in spring as more bees survived the winter..

 

[For want of a better word]

They had insulated hives decades before then.. WBCs with the gap stuffed with straw..
Strangely enough the UK based non insulators tend not to mention them. I wonder why?

One winter here of non insulated langs and a poly lang made the choice very simple. The poly outperformed in spring as more bees survived the winter..

Grandads 50s WBC's had a quilt*.... plus a couple more thick hessian potato bags on top for the winter..... all of his allotment colonies got through that harsh Winter of 1963?
* No crownboards... and therefore No matchsticks
DerekM can do the critical mass stuff I expect.

Nos da

 

[Finman]

Brother Adam also said to ask the bees and let them tell you. While I agree that better insulated hives in theory should work better both summer and winter, I'd say the bees have to decide if it is in fact better. Your position is based entirely on human considerations. Calculation of heat transfer is not the same thing as taking a very close look at how the bees behave in a poly hive vs a wood hive. With that in mind....

Bees need water summer and winter. In summer, they can fly out to get as much as they want so long as there is a source nearby. When it is too cold to fly, they still need water. Honey is @17 percent water which is not nearly enough. Metabolizing sugars in honey produces water with the simple reaction of 1 - C6H12O6 + 6 - O2 producing 6 C02 + 6 H20. So to get water in winter, bees need to metabolize honey. Bees can metabolize too much honey with the result that excess moisture accumulates on the hive interior and can drip back down on the bees. This plays out in my hives if I don't have upper entrances. Bees also can metabolize too little honey with the result that they are so thirsty they fly out on a day that is too cold and get chilled and die.

Mobus showed - ABJ July and August 1998 - that bees in a highly insulated hive do not produce enough water and as a result they fly out on a cold day and die. He also showed that the same effect occurs when a cluster is too large by combining two large colonies in a wooden hive. His methods were fairly rigorous including weighing individual bees as they flew out of the hive to see how much water they contained. From personal experience, I can state that a normal size colony in a wooden hive produces a huge surplus of water, ergo the upper entrances in my hives.

Calumny is a word indicating personal attack, the act of deliberately spreading lies or slander. Please take what I post as an invitation to discussion, not an attack on your position. I am asking that you take a few moments to step outside your normal track and think about bee logic instead of human logic. Perhaps putting a source of water in the hive would be useful with a poly hive during winter?

With this in mind, and intended solely to invite discussion, would you care to comment on the need to ask the bees what they think about poly hives?

Fusion, you do not know what you are writing.. I have followed 25 years what they do, when I have fed bees with protein patty.

Fusion, Set up your hives properly and stop that dreaming. You do not listen at all, when others give advices.

For example bees do not generate any drinking water inside the hive. Pure rubbish.

..bees get drinking water from soil, if soil is not covered with snow. They get water from sunny spots, even if out temp is zero. They cannot take water directly from snow, but if sun warms up some spot, there they get water from bare surfaces where melted snow drills.



If snow covers the soil one week, bees eate all open brood, but they do not break capped brood.

Personal attack.... I have had 30 years polyhives on harsh climate. And I have fed pollen patties 27 years to bees, and I learned on one month, how necessary water is on brood rearing. If bees do not get drinking water from outside, larvae become sick.
.

If bees have difficulties to get water, they stop patty eating. When they can gl out, they often carry water two hours per day. Then they start to eate patty again.



.

 

[Hivemaker.]

....

I have an university education of biological researcher and I do not vote who is right or wrong.

Very pure rubbish. Why? Because I know.
Fusion. Set up your hives properly and stop that dreaming. You do not listen at all

 

[Finman]

....

Thank you Sir... for nothing

 

[Finman]

So to get water in winter, bees need to metabolize honey. Bees can metabolize too much honey with the result that excess moisture accumulates on the hive interior and can drip back down on the bees.

**** They do not do that. And they cannot waste they winter stores By generating water. My hives use winter stores 9 months . My hives are in hives 6 months and they cannot come out to pick water during that time. and they cannot walk to cold inner walls to drink water



This plays out in my hives if I don't have upper entrances. Bees also can metabolize too little honey with the result that they are so thirsty they fly out on a day that is too cold and get chilled and die.

*** They do not do that



Mobus showed - ABJ July and August 1998 - that bees in a highly insulated hive do not produce enough water and as a result they fly out on a cold day and die.

**** if they go out in too cold weather, they return to hive in 2 seconds
Sick bees, like nosema sick, fly away and do not return.

He also showed that the same effect occurs when a cluster is too large by combining two large colonies in a wooden hive.

*** that is not happening in large colonies

Perhaps putting a source of water in the hive would be useful with a poly hive during winter?

**** After using 30 years polyhives, that is not needed.


what they think about poly hives

**** Polyhives are splended
.

 

[Finman]

Brother Adam said that his uninsulated colonies were the first to build up in the spring.

My hives, are they in wooden hive or in polyhive, they start brood rearing at same time, at once when they get pollen.

First brood bees rear in February, even if it is -20C outside. Then they stop brood rearing because they do not have pollen in combs.

 

[Finman]

From personal experience, I can state that a normal size colony in a wooden hive produces a huge surplus of water, ergo the upper entrances in my hives.

Your hives have cold walls, and moisture condensates onto cold surfaces. Then perhaps the cluster has too much vain space and that makes hive interior more cold.

Use insulated hive boxes and dummy boards, then you do not have condensation.

In wooden box moisture goes inside wood, and that makes the WALLS even colder.

Even plywood takes in 30% water out of its weigh.
.

In properly set poly hive condensates moisture onto side walls and water drills down onto floor.

.

 

[user 6228]

Brother Adam also said to ask the bees and let them tell you. While I agree that better insulated hives in theory should work better both summer and winter, I'd say the bees have to decide if it is in fact better. Your position is based entirely on human considerations. Calculation of heat transfer is not the same thing as taking a very close look at how the bees behave in a poly hive vs a wood hive. With that in mind....

Bees need water summer and winter. In summer, they can fly out to get as much as they want so long as there is a source nearby. When it is too cold to fly, they still need water. Honey is @17 percent water which is not nearly enough. Metabolizing sugars in honey produces water with the simple reaction of 1 - C6H12O6 + 6 - O2 producing 6 C02 + 6 H20. So to get water in winter, bees need to metabolize honey. Bees can metabolize too much honey with the result that excess moisture accumulates on the hive interior and can drip back down on the bees. This plays out in my hives if I don't have upper entrances. Bees also can metabolize too little honey with the result that they are so thirsty they fly out on a day that is too cold and get chilled and die.

Mobus showed - ABJ July and August 1998 - that bees in a highly insulated hive do not produce enough water and as a result they fly out on a cold day and die. He also showed that the same effect occurs when a cluster is too large by combining two large colonies in a wooden hive. His methods were fairly rigorous including weighing individual bees as they flew out of the hive to see how much water they contained. From personal experience, I can state that a normal size colony in a wooden hive produces a huge surplus of water, ergo the upper entrances in my hives.

Calumny is a word indicating personal attack, the act of deliberately spreading lies or slander. Please take what I post as an invitation to discussion, not an attack on your position. I am asking that you take a few moments to step outside your normal track and think about bee logic instead of human logic. Perhaps putting a source of water in the hive would be useful with a poly hive during winter?

With this in mind, and intended solely to invite discussion, would you care to comment on the need to ask the bees what they think about poly hives?

I take offence at this

Your position is based entirely on human considerations.

The physics of heat transfer cares not about whether the subject is animal, mineral, or vegetable. My position is based on physics not human or honeybee considerations.

Mobus fell into the trap of considering the environment of the honeybee as isothermal and honeybee behaviour as fixed solely by temperature. He quotes isothermal experiments and then uses them in in non isothermal situations you cant do that even with simple heat engines.
you are falling into the same trap

Honeybees have evolved to cope with non isothermal environments (trees). They can change their level of activity independent of the temperature so long as the energy required is within their range. (o.e cluster break cluster).

Mobus makes the assumption in his experiments that you can change the environment of the colony and the number of bees back and forth and this will make no difference compared to leaving it the same all year. Yet he quotes optimum cluster size for climatic conditions so why can not bees assume optimum size/behaviours for the hive conductance? i.e. mass conductance ratio

from the words he uses and how he uses them and the measurements he didnt take, I dont think mobus has a real grasp on heat transfer

I have observed honeybees in hives that have less than half the heat loss of polyhives for 5 years The bees are kept in these hives all year round, and they do not rush out for water in winter. The only noticeable water fetching is in spring.

 

[Finman]

I The only noticeable water fetching is in spring.

That is right. Bees need water only then when they have brood.

In summer they use mostly water which comes via nectar.

If you have a drinking pool outside in your garden, you see the bee traffic on the pool.

.

Mobus showed - ABJ July and August 1998 - that bees in a highly insulated hive do not produce enough water and as a result they fly out on a cold day and die. QUOTE]

Who is that Bobus?

WE have only insulated hives and bees are alive in cold days. Bees stay inside the hives during cold days.

 

[user 6228]

That is right. Bees need water only then when they have brood.

In summer they use mostly water which comes via nectar.

If you have a drinking pool outside in your garden, you see the bee traffic on the pool.

We have such a pool they also go for the moss on the sunny side of the roof which can be interesting when doing work up there

 

[Finman]

.

Mobus showed - ABJ July and August 1998 - that bees in a highly insulated hive do not produce enough water and as a result they fly out on a cold day and die.

Who is that Mobus? And did he really noticed/said, that bees die on cold days?

WE have only insulated hives and bees are alive in cold days. Bees stay inside the hives during cold days.

 

[B+.]

Who is that Mobus? .

Bernhard Mobus, NDB

 

[Finman]

We have such a pool they also go for the moss on the sunny side of the roof which can be interesting when doing work up there

Yes I have moss in the edge of the pool. And moss is in the sunny spot of the pool.

Then in early spring, I have 60 litre aquarium laying on its side. It gives a wind shelter to bees.

Aquarium has a moss layer and then 5 litre water bottle. Bottle has a hole in its side. Bottle lays on the moss. It donate water according consumption.

There are too rotten natural pools in forest, and bees love rotten stinking water.
.
When I feed pollen patty, bees really need drinking water and a lot.

.
Drinking bottle for bees, 5 litre.

-

 

[Itchy]

I'm not concerned about bees getting water, there'll be plenty of condensation where the insulated bit meets the uninsulated floor. At least it won't be over their heads.