This beekeeping is all or nothing!

[Thymallus]

My own experience with F1 is that is best to requeen EVERY year with bees bred by a specialist who knows exactly what they are doing,

And for those of us who can't justify the expense or the necessity of II, it's the best we can do. You don't have to know who or whom you're queen mated with, you simply need to be able to select those who perform equivalently or better than the original breeding stock.....as per your requirements. Currently my F1's are on a par with my original stock which were obviously bred from those who know exactly what they are doing....In fact this year a couple are exceeding in colony strength (can't say honey production (yet!)...crap spring so far up here)....than queens provided by the specialists.........not bad for an amateur bee breeders F1's.
Easy peasy!

 

[For want of a better word]

I don't get how or why the professional F1 bee breeders would go to all the expense and trouble of crossing a Carnie with an Italian if it was so easy peezy!
All beekeepers would be doing it and producing so much cheap honey from huge colonies with so much hybrid vigor that Yorkshire honey it would be a stock item in all the foodbanks across the country now we have another horrendous four years or so of austerity to look forward to!

Yeghes da

 

[Thymallus]

I don't get how or why the professional F1 bee breeders would go to all the expense and trouble of crossing a Carnie with an Italian if it was so easy peezy!
All beekeepers would be doing it and producing so much cheap honey from huge colonies with so much hybrid vigor that Yorkshire honey it would be a stock item in all the foodbanks across the country now we have another horrendous four years or so of austerity to look forward to!

Yeghes da

Who said anything about a specific F1 cross?
The specific hybrid F1 you mention is a difficult one unless you have access to II or isolated mating sites.
Producing an F1 from pure bred stock say Italian/Carniolan or Buckfast etc crossed with any local bees is easy peasy.

 

[For want of a better word]

Who said anything about a specific F1 cross?
The specific hybrid F1 you mention is a difficult one unless you have access to II or isolated mating sites.
Producing an F1 from pure bred stock say Italian/Carniolan or Buckfast etc crossed with any local bees is easy peasy.

Then in the case of open mating with the precious F1 queen the progeny would be adulterated with genes from the local population.

If you want to have bees with a specific genome the beekeeper would have to buy in new queens every year.... from a specialist breeder.

In this case the OP would surely be risking raising a more hybridised bee that would not have all the wonderful honey producing and easy to handle traits attributed to the specialist F1.

I would have thought all of this was clearly explained in even the most basic beebreeding books availiable??

Yeghes da

 

[Tremyfro]

I think it is unavoidable if you want to keep your bees with a pleasant nature to handle. I am happy to buy my queens to update the genetics. I accept that the first matings of the offspring probably will be fine but subsequent breeding of daughters could bring a queen with less than desirable traits. I expect to buy a new queen for time to time. The queen in Hive 1 is in her third year this year so I may need to replace her next year but I can only hope that her replacement is as lovely to work with. It may be that she will be replaced by supercedure....but we will see. Personally, for new beekeeper it is important to work with quiet bees...it has given me a chance to focus on what I am seeing in the colony and even when the colony is really big and full of bees...I haven't felt daunted by inspecting. Although a honey harvest is nice to have....the keeping of bees is the main fun.

 

[For want of a better word]

It needs to be said the superceeded queen will also have to leave the colony to mate... with whatever drones the lottery of open mating brings with it.

Possibly you may find that the local bee population is docile, prolific, fecund... etc etc.. particularly if the local beekeepers around you have a beebreeding schedule aimed at producing such a bee... possibly importing "foreign" bees may be messing thing up their efforts?.... your F1 will definitely be adding to the local gene pool.

As a personal note.... I have no problem with F1 hybrids... I used to keep them myself ... when I lived in Surrey.
Now living in deepest darkest south west.. Black bee county!

Yeghes da

 

[Thymallus]

Then in the case of open mating with the precious F1 queen the progeny would be adulterated with genes from the local population.

If you want to have bees with a specific genome the beekeeper would have to buy in new queens every year.... from a specialist breeder.

In this case the OP would surely be risking raising a more hybridised bee that would not have all the wonderful honey producing and easy to handle traits attributed to the specialist F1.

I would have thought all of this was clearly explained in even the most basic beebreeding books availiable??

Yeghes da

Not sure why you keep harping on about buying specialist F1 queens. Pure or line bred Italians, Carniolans Buckfast queens etc are not F1's. The next generation is, unless they mate purely with their own strains.
My F1 queens are as near as damn it 1/2 buckfast 1/2 mongrel. Sufficient to retain the Buckfast dominant characteristics for that first generation of F1's bred from a Buckfast queen.
Is there something about these simple F1 crosses you don't understand?

 

[For want of a better word]

Not sure why you keep harping on about buying specialist F1 queens. Pure or line bred Italians, Carniolans Buckfast queens etc are not F1's. The next generation is, unless they mate purely with their own strains.
My F1 queens are as near as damn it 1/2 buckfast 1/2 mongrel. Sufficient to retain the Buckfast dominant characteristics for that first generation of F1's bred from a Buckfast queen.
Is there something about these simple F1 crosses you don't understand?

Obviously... had this conservation just now with a very experienced beekeeper, who it seems to think you are confusing F1 with Ferrari and motor sport!

Personally .. I can not see the link... perhaps someone far more clever than me .... explain?

Big orange F1 hybrid carrots do not breed true if you take their seeds that have been crossed with the lesser local red carrot... why should bees be so different?

Yeghes da

 

[Thymallus]

Big orange F1 hybrid carrots do not breed true if you take their seeds that have been crossed with the lesser local red carrot... why should bees be so different?

Yeghes da

Errrr if you plant bees in the ground like carrots they don't grow.

 

[For want of a better word]

Errrr if you plant bees in the ground like carrots they don't grow.

Oh so sorry... total misunderstanding I thought you wrote beans?

Must be something lost in translation.. never could do all there regional

dialects!​

Yeghes da

 

[Thymallus]

Oh so sorry... total misunderstanding I thought you wrote beans?

Whatever it is that's eating you, it must be suffering horribly.

 

[For want of a better word]

Whatever it is that's eating you, it must be suffering horribly.

Diphyllobothrium latum probably from eating uncooked grayling???

Yeghes da

​

 

[Thymallus]

I do hope its not an F1 with a bit of extra vigor......

 

[For want of a better word]

I do hope its not an F1 with a bit of extra vigor......

To quote the Mercedes team driver when he saw the new Ferrari !

Yeghes da

 

[B+.]

perhaps someone far more clever than me .... explain?

I only have 3 degrees but I'll give it a try.
They have go-faster stripes on the side ;-)

 

[Thymallus]

Big orange F1 hybrid carrots do not breed true if you take their seeds that have been crossed with the lesser local red carrot... why should bees be so different?

If we can get back on topic......
You keep teaching us (more than once) that F1 crosses don't breed true. Any O level student can tell you the same.
What point is it you are trying to make?

 

[For want of a better word]

If we can get back on topic......
You keep teaching us (more than once) that F1 crosses don't breed true. Any O level student can tell you the same.
What point is it you are trying to make?

Not all beekeepers it would seem have an "0" level in biology

It is like my 18 century antique carriage clock... if you do not wind it every seven days it only gives the correct time twice a day.

However you would need to explain that simple to grasp factoid to someone who is a beginner in horology.. or has only ever seen a ( electric powered) digital timepiece!

Yeghes da

 

[Thymallus]

As I mentioned in passing a couple of posts ago....what point are you trying to make? I think you can assume we have all grasped the basics of F1 crosses (they become F2's) and can distinguish this from any ambiguity with formula One racing.

 

[For want of a better word]

As I mentioned in passing a couple of posts ago....what point are you trying to make? I think you can assume we have all grasped the basics of F1 crosses (they become F2's) and can distinguish this from any ambiguity with formula One racing.

One could explain FO ( F zero) but I expect THE MODERATOR would delete the post as we would not want to introduce any more ambiguity to what has become a relatively meaningless thread!

Yeghes da

 

[Cussword]

I only have 3 degrees but I'll give it a try.
They have go-faster stripes on the side ;-)

I used to like the 3 Degrees,,, takes me back......