The match and crownboard thing

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One of the frequent problems that newcomers to beekeeping face is the amount of 'headlining' that goes on amongst beekeepers. You know how newspapers operate - trying to capture a whole complex issue in just 4 or 5 words. Bit like how politicians use sound-bites.

One of these is: "cold doesn't kill bees, but moisture/ wetness/ condensation does."
A more complete version of this 'sound-bite' would be that moisture dripping onto the colony can kill bees. [Hint - if you tilt your hives during winter, then moisture will run down the walls, and NOT onto the cluster]

Bees rather enjoy a high humidity - once the honey has been dessicated, of course - that's why they seal-up their cavity by propolising any gaps which exist. People who are obsessed with thermal insulation interpret this as keeping the heat in - whereas I'd bet money it's to keep the moisture in. Even in the dead of winter - if the temperatures are favourable - you'll find bees taking water-gathering flights. Bees NEED water.

But doesn't lack of ventilation cause a build-up of mold ? Sure - and that's something humans think must be avoided at all costs. Mold in our homes is a sure recipe for respiratory disease - but bees are well used to living amongst extreme forms of mold, fungi and rotting wood. That's their natural environment.

But we clever, over-brained monkeys, now think that bees should be living in clinically-clean and thermally efficient plastic boxes which mirror our own habitats, whereas throughout north-western Europe they've survived for a helluva long time - without any assistance whatsoever from humans - often in damp, wet and cold conditions.
LJ

I'd commend you to read the research regarding the effective inhibition on successful varroa reproduction in conditions of high temperature and high humidity.
Derek refers to this in his paper for a starting point.
 
Research can and is, regularly manipulated. Instead of reading research papers, it's easy to test things for yourself.
Bees think like bees, humans can only think like humans.
I would not dream of telling a beekeeper with decades of experience keeping healthy colonies, that he is 'wrong' based on what the newest research says.
 
Research can and is, regularly manipulated. Instead of reading research papers, it's easy to test things for yourself.
Bees think like bees, humans can only think like humans.
I would not dream of telling a beekeeper with decades of experience keeping healthy colonies, that he is 'wrong' based on what the newest research says.

Hmm.. nor would I.

But in the past I have disagreed - politely - with what some beekeepers stated as what keepers should do - in open meetings. I have also quoted chapter and verse on research in the same meetings.

See farming as an example. There are virtually no farmers - livestock or arable - who farm as they did 50 years ago. There have been great advances. But as beekeeping is really a hobby to many, it is considered by some once you have kept for a few years, you don't need to keep up with research.

That kind of attitude does no-one any favours..
 
If you have solid floors and are worried about ventilation the best place for those matchsticks is between the brood box and the floor
 
If you have solid floors and are worried about ventilation the best place for those matchsticks is between the brood box and the floor

I run some solid floors and some OMFs. I see no difference in bee health or overwintering or damp (none) between the two types of floor. I don't worry about ventilation and narrow all entrances down to 2-3 beespaces at present until we get some warmer weather.

It must be luck
or maybe it's the 50mm side insulation cosies with 100mm on top..:sunning:
 
Research can and is, regularly manipulated. Instead of reading research papers, it's easy to test things for yourself.
Bees think like bees, humans can only think like humans.
I would not dream of telling a beekeeper with decades of experience keeping healthy colonies, that he is 'wrong' based on what the newest research says.

It must be right it's always been like that? :nono:

Bees can survive despite the actions of beekeepers :sunning:
 
Hmm.. nor would I.

But in the past I have disagreed - politely - with what some beekeepers stated as what keepers should do - in open meetings. I have also quoted chapter and verse on research in the same meetings.

See farming as an example. There are virtually no farmers - livestock or arable - who farm as they did 50 years ago. There have been great advances. But as beekeeping is really a hobby to many, it is considered by some once you have kept for a few years, you don't need to keep up with research.

That kind of attitude does no-one any favours..

This is a lot like vegetable gardening. The varieties you see in the seed catalogues are almost never used by commercial growers, techniques have changed but we're still growing old-fashioned tomatoes, because we like them.
 
Research can and is, regularly manipulated. Instead of reading research papers, it's easy to test things for yourself.
Bees think like bees, humans can only think like humans.
I would not dream of telling a beekeeper with decades of experience keeping healthy colonies, that he is 'wrong' based on what the newest research says.

So when a "bee keeper with decades of experience" says the heat transfer equivalent of "2 +2 = -4" we should all keep our traps shut?

How heat flows through materials, fluids convect, and bodies radiate does not change when the source is animate or inanimate. bee or human, hive or house. The rules dont change.

I don’t mind arguing heat transfer with professors of entomology let alone bee keepers of any length experience.
 
I don’t mind arguing heat transfer with professors of entomology let alone bee keepers of any length experience.

Hey Derek!

I see in your pictures you make -insert brand- bee cosies very similar to what I have constructed this year out of celotex for my colonies. (50mm sides/100mm tops) I'm confident it was a positive move. (Last year they just had celotex hats). It seems far less damp in there this year.

However, some (related?) questions.

On fine days I feel the are insulated FROM the sun's rays and maybe a little warming on those fine days when the bees should probably be out cleansing. Do you think there is value in considering this? On a calm sunny day or two I have turned the cosies up side down so the sun can warm the walls of the hive while still keeping the crown board insulated.

I hear much talk regarding various physics but I think I am yet to read anybody talk significantly about thermal mass. I imagine celotex has next to none whereas a natural tree cavity of thick living well hydrated wood I imagine does have a thermal mass significant to their environment?

Do you insulate all through summer as well?

Do you think we should consider thermal mass when we are talking about a 'perfect' colony environment?

Are thermal mass considerations going to have different implications in summer and winter?
 
Hey Derek!

I see in your pictures you make -insert brand- bee cosies very similar to what I have constructed this year out of celotex for my colonies. (50mm sides/100mm tops) I'm confident it was a positive move. (Last year they just had celotex hats). It seems far less damp in there this year.

However, some (related?) questions.

On fine days I feel the are insulated FROM the sun's rays and maybe a little warming on those fine days when the bees should probably be out cleansing. Do you think there is value in considering this? On a calm sunny day or two I have turned the cosies up side down so the sun can warm the walls of the hive while still keeping the crown board insulated.

I hear much talk regarding various physics but I think I am yet to read anybody talk significantly about thermal mass. I imagine celotex has next to none whereas a natural tree cavity of thick living well hydrated wood I imagine does have a thermal mass significant to their environment?

Do you insulate all through summer as well?

Do you think we should consider thermal mass when we are talking about a 'perfect' colony environment?

Are thermal mass considerations going to have different implications in summer and winter?

Read Derek's paper.. all covered. Hysteresis of hives..
 
So when a "bee keeper with decades of experience" says the heat transfer equivalent of "2 +2 = -4" we should all keep our traps shut?

How heat flows through materials, fluids convect, and bodies radiate does not change when the source is animate or inanimate. bee or human, hive or house. The rules dont change.

I don’t mind arguing heat transfer with professors of entomology let alone bee keepers of any length experience.

If that beekeeper wants to discuss those things it's up to him, I'm not particularly interested. If a beekeeper has been successfully keeping healthy colonies for decades, without following your doctrine, are you going to argue that he has been doing it all wrong?
 
Hey Derek!

I see in your pictures you make -insert brand- bee cosies very similar to what I have constructed this year out of celotex for my colonies. (50mm sides/100mm tops) I'm confident it was a positive move. (Last year they just had celotex hats). It seems far less damp in there this year.

However, some (related?) questions.

On fine days I feel the are insulated FROM the sun's rays and maybe a little warming on those fine days when the bees should probably be out cleansing. Do you think there is value in considering this? On a calm sunny day or two I have turned the cosies up side down so the sun can warm the walls of the hive while still keeping the crown board insulated.
Dont put it on then off then on. Let the bees work it out. Their habits change when insulated. Just go with it and observe
I hear much talk regarding various physics but I think I am yet to read anybody talk significantly about thermal mass. I imagine celotex has next to none whereas a natural tree cavity of thick living well hydrated wood I imagine does have a thermal mass significant to their environment?
Its in the paper and its a big deal but its complicated by the layer of rotted wood and the propolis. It could be involved in the honey ripening process. Honey isnt the only energy store for bees.
Do you insulate all through summer as well?
Yes, insulation works both way keeping cool and keeping warm. I worked in germany in poorly insulated sheds through the winter and summer +30C -30C they were at their most intolerable on sunny days rather than winter. We get very little or no bearding and what we do has nothing to do with outside temperature or sunshine.
Do you think we should consider thermal mass when we are talking about a 'perfect' colony environment?
Yes probably but high thermal mass usually comes with high weight, and some draw backs for small colonies in a previously unoccupied nest (maybe why bees like previously occupied - getting in a "warm bed"?) Researching this will take many years.
Are thermal mass considerations going to have different implications in summer and winter?

definitely but the easier thing of tree level conductance has not been researched at all.
 
If that beekeeper wants to discuss those things it's up to him, I'm not particularly interested. If a beekeeper has been successfully keeping healthy colonies for decades, without following your doctrine, are you going to argue that he has been doing it all wrong?

I dont have a doctrine... I just dont like someone explaining their apparent success or lack thereof with nonsense such as:

"honeybees don't heat the hive", "The warmer the bees the more food they eat", "high humidity outside the hive means high humidity inside". "A one inch hole in the top of hive has no effect".

All of the above are nonsense regardless of the animal or heat source involved.
 
Thank you all for responding to my original question.
I think I now have a better grip on why matchsticks create so much debate. It's quite an eye opener.
 
Thank you all for responding to my original question.
I think I now have a better grip on why matchsticks create so much debate. It's quite an eye opener.

:laughing-smiley-004:laughing-smiley-004:laughing-smiley-004:laughing-smiley-004:sport-smiley-002:

and so it goes on! I keep my Bees in well insulated hives because its logical to me and I work in the insulation industry, they seem very happy and so am I, if someone wants to ventilate their hives by leaving crown board holes open, propping them up with the unmentionable items or drilling holes in the hive then that's up to them, I just do what I feel is right and should it all go wrong I'll face the consequences along with my bees, each to their own and in some cases there's no point arguing.
:ohthedrama:
 
Thank you all for responding to my original question.
I think I now have a better grip on why matchsticks create so much debate. It's quite an eye opener.

Another use for matchsticks.....

to prop your eyelids oped as you read through all this hogwash!

(HM and Admin must have a special collection!)

Mytten da
 

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